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Devblog: Changes to Haven Worlds

By [Ankama]WAKFU - ADMINISTRATOR - February 27, 2020, 15:00:00
DevTracker AnkaTracker
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Score : 11805

Haven't played in quite a while but still wished to comment on this.

Penning and HW farming were an order of magnitude more efficient than wild farming (whilst arguably being more monotonous and boring) and I think you're correctly identifying that as a source of imbalance and as being detrimental to the health of the game. 

However by removing these things entirely (rather than nerfing them down to more reasonable levels) it leads to the question of "Well what is the point in HWs now?". You said as social spaces and customizable spaces.. but well not everyone cares about those or at least doesn't care about them on a guild level (some people like to do it more in their HB ). I mean I have seen some haven worlds that were absolute abominations. Yes HWs will still retain their guild bonuses, but those bonuses are kind of marginal so I would like to see those bonuses increased significantly (perhaps needing some building upgrades to achieve them). Getting more generous harvest XP boosts (and even harvest quantity boosts) would make HWs look worthwhile to me where as these proposed changes make them seem kind of pointless. And I think enhancing these bonuses is fair, because you no longer need to worry about them being used in conjunction with overpowered and imbalanced HW farming techniques. I think it also helps promote areas as social spaces if players acquire bonuses for spending time in them (think about how almanax often ends up as a meeting point and yes I think part of that is it having a teleport item but I also think part of it is because it offers bonuses. You can idle at alma whilst waiting for friends, then quickly grab your bonus when you're ready to do something.)

Also whilst it's true that some guilds have invested a great deal of money and resources in their HWs those guilds have also typically extracted a lot of value out of those HWs so far so I don't think they need to be compensated for this change.

[Ankama]WAKFU|2020-02-28 15:07:29

Following the server merge, will there be an upgrade of the spawn rate for minerals and fishes?

The number of spots for these harvesting jobs are already designed for servers with a big population. However, we are pondering 3 changes when the server merge happens:
  • Upgrade the number of ressources harvested
  • Lower spots’ spawn rate
  • Upgrade the number of spots in the world

We have not made a decision about it yet, but we are going to monitor the evolution of this aspect once the server merge happens.


Big populations, of what? 1 guy? 

2 people competing for the same resources is already annoying (unless there were some big changes since I last played? About at the release of shadofang). 3 or 4 people competing for the same resource sounds like agony. 

Encouraging player interaction is what you want from an MMO, I mean if everyone is sitting inside instanced HWs etc then you might as well be playing single player games. However with regard to resource collection, most of these interactions are negative. Someone can steal your crops, someone can take your shinies, someone can drag you into a fight you don't care about, someone can ruin the eco you fixed... and there seems like limited scope for players to cooperate. This is why HW farming was so efficient, because the advantage of occasionally finding other people's stuff to grab isn't worth the disadvantage of needing to actively defend stuff you're growing yourself. 

So I have no idea what you mean when you say resource areas are designed for a large number of players. They're okay with a small number of players (and maybe server merge won't change that all too much) but they're horrible for a large number of players. Do you envision.. 20 people each sitting on a single fishing node.. clicking once every couple of minutes and taking a full week to get enough rare fish to upgrade a single item?
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What's the purpose of a haven world now?

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Hub for your guild and a place to put all your decorations.
And a bank i guess?

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I waited literal years for this.

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i dont get it ,so the game will no longer has a limited HW but u gonna make HW useless ??????????????????

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Yep.

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A Haven-World without ability to grow tree's & plants == useless landfill dump for unwanted deco items.    sad

Ankama, if you have already decided to NERF away the useful aspects of Haven-Worlds, might as well do away with them entirely, which should allow the server merge to progress sooner.   Less code to rework that way.     pensive

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After investing millions and millions of kama into hw now you just gonna make it completely irrelevant?? why are you guys keep deleting player investments without even a simple poll ? It is the same enchantment thing all over again says you haven't learned anything from it.I don't get it..look at any popular mmo you think that's how they got there?Yea every guild is going to get hw for free but why did you think they were needed in the first place?Because of the ease of profession leveling even with hw it takes months to level professions.This change is going to make leveling in the game almost impossible for new players.And with the merge coming all the mining and fishing spots are going to be too crowded people just gonna quit out of frustration.
 

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They already said mining and fishing spots will respawn faster.

As for being difficult to level now, yes it will be harder now that you will actually have to pay attention to ecosystems and laws, but this was always the intentional way, only rare people with a havenworld were able to just ignore said mechanics.
This was unfair to everyone else, so they are removing that.

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Captchphrase|2020-03-01 21:04:48
There's a bank already and there's the HB for decorations moreover in the HW only guildmaster and executives can play with decorations.

That entirely depends on your guild's permissions.
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I have another question in the merge what happens if guilds have the same name fpr example on nox and remi i have a guild both have the same name and i also have two characters with the same name as well will they overwrite each other durning the merge  would i need to change the names of them to keep both ?

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I'm guessing you will be forced to change the name of one of them after merge

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I can understand that this is very disappointing for the very few guilds that managed to get hold of a haven world. I hope that there will be an appropriate compensation for the kamas spent. Still, those current owners of haven worlds must face the fact, that the system is totally unbalanced the way it is right now. They should also keep in mind, how much kamas (and EXP) they were able to make with all those conditions their haven world provided.

I really wish that there'd be a way to provide haven worlds, the way they are now, to all guilds and honestly I find it a bit hard to believe that there isn't. With the current price development of cloud computing I thought it would be an easy achievement. However, being a software developer myself, I know far too well that a lot of things seem very easy to archive as long as you're not the one who has to implement them.

If it is really impossible to provide at least the chance of obtaining a haven world (the way they are or maybe slightly adapted) to all guilds, then it would be irresponsible to keep most of the players in a disadvantage for the benefit of a very few.

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TwinklePhoenix|2020-03-03 15:37:46
I have another question in the merge what happens if guilds have the same name fpr example on nox and remi i have a guild both have the same name and i also have two characters with the same name as well will they overwrite each other durning the merge  would i need to change the names of them to keep both ?


Hello everyone!
 
We recently confirmed that the servers will be merged. We are aware that this raises a lot of questions, that is why we will come back to you in the coming weeks with more concrete information.
 
What we can confirm now is that there will be 2 servers: a French server bringing together Dathura and Aerafal, and an International server bringing together Nox, Remington, Phaeris, Efrim and Elbor.

[Flatops]
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Hi , this sounds nice for an active game , hope ankama test also the lags  because just in remington server double xp weekends present some lags , is cool you guys thinking on the merge but please make a good one theres no rush for more mistakes ....reminder : playerbase flame on ankama every time a patch comes with many hot fixes ,bugs and lags .;p keep the good work. 
thanks 
GOUG

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I remember the way the launched da steam client, everyone was super hyped about it, we expected a lot of new players but in the end we lost more cause of bugfu. I do fear the same about merge.

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yikes

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what about the Decorations in our hws do we have to remove them or with the new up date will they be still in hw after up date and i am sure all but a few houses will be gone since hws will be smaller

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Wait, where did they say that they will be smaller?
 

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Hello everyone,

First of all, thanks for all your feedback on the changes planned for Haven Worlds. We read your comments carefully, and they're all important to us.

However, there seem to still be a few misunderstandings here:      

The server merger will mean having to manage hundreds of Haven Worlds per server, and that would have led to significant instability if we had decided to keep Haven Worlds
working the same way as they do now. We want to ensure that you have an optimal game experience. You've said that you shouldn't have to be affected by our technical constraints, but we believe that the server merger, which a vast majority of you have been requesting for a long time, is important enough that it shouldn't be obstructed by the current form of HWs.

We're sorry that some of you feel like you haven't been listened to, but players sometimes have contradictory expectations, and it's our job to listen to everyone, not just those who are unhappy with certain decisions. Your satisfaction is very important to us, but we also have to deal with our own constraints and respect our overall vision for the game. In our opinion, HWs gave outsized advantages to a small number of players, especially in terms of the speed at which they earned XP. The decision made by our team was to let everyone have access to what was previously only available to a minority of players, while removing everything that didn't fit with our vision for Haven Worlds. Obviously, what you want for Wakfu is not incompatible with what we want, but there will always be some updates that make people happier than others, and changes that will cause big reactions in the forums.       

We understand that some players may be disappointed with our vision for HWs going forward. However (and some of you know what we're talking about here), we really want to revitalize certain areas of the game and focus on what we think is most important: we're developing an MMORPG. In taking a critical and objective perspective on HWs in their current form, we hope to put the emphasis on Wakfu's open world rather than the HWs, which are not really representative of a Massively Multiplayer Online world. Despite our technical constraints and our desire to revitalize the world of Wakfu, HWs will continue to be a place to exchange and store your stuff and add your own cosmetic touches, and will continue to provide you with bonuses that won't be disappearing.

Enjoy the game!

[Kovak]

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I think we all got that (most people anyway). I got that the HW, as is, are too much ressources for a merged served, because there are too many. But at the same time I can only think of the new HW as being useless, which is why people are complaining now. You are deleting everything that constantly use ressources, which I guess is ok cause no choice, but you failed to find a way to keep HWs relevant. Which actually make me wonder, why do we keep HW then? 

Deco?
We did have guild members who really enjoyed that aspect of the HW, so I won't say it's useless, but once it's done... it's done...   you aren't gonna redo your HW's deco 3 times a year...  and most people wont care as they already have their HB for that. And what are you gonna do with your tastefully decorated HW? You just gonna show it off to your friends? I don't think so,  you need incentives to go to an HW which there will be no more in the proposed revamp. 

Storage and bonuses
Yeah... but they don't actually have to be linked to an HW...

Atm people are using the HW, they aren't just a thing you get for bonuses and forget after you got it. You can delete mobs and farming if you want, but you still need to find a way that will get people at their HW.

In the past, there were a lot of events organized by guilds in their HW (on APAC anw)... maybe you could think about that...    instead of making building for bonuses, maybe their could be some incentive to create events. Instead of buildings, why not boufbowl field in a HW, and a musical chair game in another HW, hide n seek game in another, or a labyrinth puzzle games...    something that will gather people to HW, something with a community spirit. Or create items allowing people to invent their own game areas. Anyway, that's just an idea... I'm not game dev. I'm just saying, I wont have incentive to go to our own HW after the revamp... it'll just be sitting there for some tiny bonus and storage and that's it, what a shame.

As for the farming/planting outside HW issue...  you say it was created for a large group of people... Well being one who have been playing wakfu since alpha, I can tell that you are wrong; and adding some spots wont help that much... I have memories of farming super late at night cause it was less risky that someone else would steal my crops... Nobody want to live that again. So ya, you have to delete those from HW, but you failed to propose a solution that will actually work and not feel painful to the players.

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Caliiintz|2020-03-07 01:52:30
...

As for the farming/planting outside HW issue...  you say it was created for a large group of people... Well being one who have been playing wakfu since alpha, I can tell that you are wrong; and adding some spots wont help that much... I have memories of farming super late at night cause it was less risky that someone else would steal my crops... Nobody want to live that again. So ya, you have to delete those from HW, but you failed to propose a solution that will actually work and not feel painful to the players.

Don't you realize, that what you think nobody wants to live again is in fact the status quo for most of the wakfu players? My guild is trying to obtain a HW for almost two years. From the moment I've started to play this game, there hasn't been the slightest chance to get one.

Don't get me wrong. I am really kinda sorry for your loss and I sincerely wish there was a way to make this game more balanced AND let you keep your haven worlds. Still I think you'd get much more sympathy if you wouldn't just worry only for yourself but a little bit more for the majority of wakfu players.

Maybe you should ask more questions like:
  • Why does the current HW-System has to consume so many resources? Maybe smaller changes would already reduce the computing costs.
  • Have other options like code optimization or migration been considered?
  • Wouldn't it be possible to distribute HW-computing to node-servers since HWs are kinds of closed spaces in a way?

I don't know about the budget wakfu servers and development team are running on. Sometimes a running system kinda "grows" into a state, where it becomes unscaleable and very hard to optimize but in general it's kinda hard to believe that performance is that much of an issue nowadays.

 
Caliiintz|2020-03-07 17:20:42
Why would you think they didn't consider other options at all....
 

I didn't exactly say that. But look around and see what's possible nowadays. Wakfu is a great game and I highly appreciate the effort of the development team. It is very creative and unique but still it's not exactly rocket science. When you are taking the current technical development into account, you have to suspect that this is most likely not only a technical issue but also budget related. I didn't get the information that wakfu is behind revenue expectations and I don't find any statement about that in this thread, but it would be a very plausible explanation.

I am not exactly looking forward to the server merge. But I think that some changes in the HW system are unavoidable and if the proposed changes are what's possible with the current budget, I'd prefer it over removing HWs completely. Also I see a chance that it could balance the economy a bit when all players have to put the same effort into gaining resources.

Oh great, the forum has merged my new reply with my previous post. Now there is a quote in my post from a reply below. This does not make any sense at all. Who came up with an idea like that??? Merging posts when there's already a reply to the previous one? I don't get it.
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Don't get me wrong. I am really kinda sorry for your loss and I sincerely wish there was a way to make this game more balanced AND let you keep your haven worlds. Still I think you'd get much more sympathy if you wouldn't just worry only for yourself but a little bit more for the majority of wakfu players.

I did not say that the current HW system was good, I just said they would be useless after the revamp. And I personally have no lost at all, therefore I'm not asking for sympathie. You only suppose that I'm selfish for no reason.

Beside, if you think the change gonna be a status quo for you, you are wrong. People are having it easy atm because of the low population....  after a merge it'll be more difficult.  

Why does the current HW-System has to consume so many resources? Maybe smaller changes would already reduce the computing costs.

They already explained it, HW have their own ecosystem that need to be rendered in real time at any moment for every players.... so your crops continue to grow when u aren't there... that consume a lot of ressources.

Have other options like code optimization or migration been considered?

Why would you think they didn't consider other options at all....

Wouldn't it be possible to distribute HW-computing to node-servers since HWs are kinds of closed spaces in a way?

they aren't

I don't know about the budget wakfu servers and development team are running on. Sometimes a running system kinda "grows" into a state, where it becomes unscaleable and very hard to optimize but in general it's kinda hard to believe that performance is that much of an issue nowadays.

ToT explained Wakfu was doing way bellow expectations in terms of popularity and revenues. There is a team dedicated to Wakfu, but more money is most likely going to Waven which is in its development phase. Krosmaga was given up cause not enough benefits, and there is a Dofus Unity in their mind...   that gives you a "portrait" of the situation.
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Caliiintz|2020-03-07 17:20:42
ToT explained Wakfu was doing way bellow expectations in terms of popularity and revenues. There is a team dedicated to Wakfu, but more money is most likely going to Waven which is in its development phase. Krosmaga was given up cause not enough benefits, and there is a Dofus Unity in their mind...   that gives you a "portrait" of the situation.

Actually they announced that they aen't giving up on Krosmaga and are working on a new update Soon(TM).

As for "harvesting resources in the wild being hard because other players", yes that's intentional, it's a multiplayer game. It's still easier then when the game came out because they added resource protection so people can't havest your crops unless you leave them for some time after they fully grown.
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you aren't totally right. They did announce a LAST update and it was actually planned for the end of last year and we still haven't seen light of it.

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In my opinion:

Exp Farms 
I totally agree that exp farms should be removed to increase the interaction between players and balance the gameplay. More than that, if removing battles from HWs help to the Server Merge then I totally agree with it. It's for the greater good.

Jobs
If removing the possibility to gather resources at the HW helps to the Server Merge, then I agree. If it is just a matter of "it gives players a big advantage over other" then I dont' agree because we no longer have open-world PvP on Wakfu, resources are protected for some minutes to avoid thefts and there is plenty of space to plant for everyone. Haven-Worlds doesn't really give a big advantage when it comes to Jobs, you still have to adapt the terrain to make it viable and still have same space restriction outside of them. For me, they are a nice "Community" activity and it is really nice to plant side-by-side with a fellow guildmate and talk to make the farming more enjoyable.


Haven-Worlds after the change:

Without having the possibility to Fight and level up Jobs inside them, the Haven-Worlds won't be a reward for Guilds. If everything inside them is merely aesthetic then what's the point. I am the "Architect" of 2 Guild in the Elbor Server and it is a little bit sad to see how now my guildmates won't have any reason to explore them. The only reason why you would go there is to access to the Guild Bank... and that's it, Phoenix ->house -> zaap. 

Many buildings will lose their effects too: The Stasilizer (bombs to destroy creatures), The Laboratory (+50% plannting change), The Contrabandit's Lair (taxes after fights), Seed Catapult (to automatically plant monster seeds), the buildings that give you +1 Kit skill/+10 Wisdom/+10HP don't really help if you are level 200. The only really useful buildings will be Houses, Manor and Job Buildings.

Yeah, Haven-Worlds are big and they offer Guilds their very own place in the game but it is useless if the only activity that you can do inside them is to Roleplay, something that not many players are fond of.

Suggestions:

Haven-Worlds, in my opinion, are supposed to be community places. Where the guild can go, meet, talk, relax and do stuff that help the Guild to grow. That's why I suggest:

  • Add the Orchestrion to the Haven-World.
  • Customize Terrain square by square instead of 9x9 squares. Maybe give the possibility to create rivers and blocks where we could use our Divine Artifacts (jump over holes, climb, swim, etc).
  • Add the possibility to Rotate Buildings. Even if it just by mirroing the image.
  • Weather effects.
  • Enable Fights inside the Arena or add one of those Training Tofus from Astrub. It would serve as a way to train new players and guildmates in your own "Home". It would also make the building more appealing and worth building.
  • More Interaction with the Rotcere. They are pretty cool, maybe they could offer events inside the HW.
  • Maybe a quick access to Haven-Worlds through a special item? So players wouldn't have to link themselves to the Phoenix. The entrance isn't hard to reach, but it can be a little bit tedious to constantly teleport to different zones, go through 3 loading screens and then walk all the way to the Guild Hall to get to the bank for example.
  • .
  • Daily Activities inside the HW that awards you a nice amount of Guild Points/Materials for the Guild. Maybe, for example by going inside a Job Building (such as the Forge), you could interact with a machine to constantly generate a small amount of Armorer/Weapon Master exp (just to incentivate players, nothing too big so it doesn't becomes what Spectrex used to be) along with Guild Points and Materials for the Guild with a daily cap. This would mean that Job Buildings would have to be unlocked at a lower HW Tier. This way both new players and veterans con contribute equally in a community activity that incentivates players to visit the HW and would show leaders who is commited with the Guild and who is putting real effort in making it grow. Along with this, just an additional idea, maybe dissamble the whole Materials concept into different items such as Metals (generated from the Forge and Mine), Food (generated from the Windmill, Game Keeper and Fish Farm), Fiber (Distillery and Sawmill). Maybe this special HW Materials could be traded at the HW Market by the Leaders and the people they trust, this way the HW Market would be more appealing seeing how low amount of items are sold there daily.

I don't think that Haven-Worlds require players to live there, just to gather them and make them interact with each other, give them a common goal to reach and, more important, work together. 

This are just some suggestions that I think would benefit the Haven-World and make them more rewarding to compensate the fact that planting and fighting will no longer be available inside them.
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Removing farms and harvesting pretty much makes HWs a waste of memory and space. Only a rare few people actually hang out in an HW, for social reasons , other than using the marketboard. May as well remove HW's all together, re-instate Nation Guild Banks, and leave focus towards Haven bags as far as player housing and customization go... just my thoughts.

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Nation guild banks are aready a thing dude

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For update 1.67. We got update 1.67 but I can't purchase one?????????

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Hi Mael28,

We apologize for the inconvenience, Haven Worlds are unavailable at the moment. It'll be fixed soon.

[Flatops]

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Hey, just wondering when we'll actually be able to interact with eco in HW? I understand the "ecosystem" itself was converted into decoration, but we can't even destroy what's left in order to re-decorate, and there's random crops everywhere from before update.
Also- How long does it take these new decorative plants to grow? I planted trees and flowers about 7 hours ago and they're still "freshly planted"?

Thanks in advance,
Ova
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Same situation(s), same question. I'm sad that there isn't enough transparency with new changes and everything it inclines. I understand everything is difficult right now since they are working from home and I'm sure they are always working hard, but the lack of information on everything is real discouraging. This includes the mystery of what exactly was added and new to the game, the moods, the supposed new animated object? nothing is clear.. and if it wasn't for the community trying to help and inform one another we would still be just as in the dark as when things first released but there's so much that's still unclear. As I stated before, it's not charming at all to release new content and not make it clear exactly what is new, how to quest for it or what drops it and how the new items or objects function.. i get if they wanted to make it so the community communicates and discovers things together but honestly that's not what seems to be generally felt by all the players and making that clear would have at least been more fair in that case. Right now it just seems lazy/like they don't really care.. which is strange considering all the work they put into everything and the fact that we are all excited and grateful.. i'm confused what they are trying to say to us exactly through their actions tbh.. (let's not even go in on how broken the encyclopedia is where most if not all of this info should just be available. Items, it's stats or functions, how to obtain them, actual gif's or pictures as an example etc. etc. so important in a game like this..... i really don't get it.)

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