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Class revamp - Xelor

By #[Troyle] July 10, 2013, 16:00:01
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Score : 542

Oh god the new rollback is gonna be insane.... think of all the stat and equip points xelors might now not need to use

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Score : 540

I feel like xelors deserve a new reset cause of the lack of information, i would have never leveled sinistro if the spell description was accurate.

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Score : 4069
Ollipekka|2013-07-31 07:46:03
I feel like xelors deserve a new reset cause of the lack of information, i would have never leveled sinistro if the spell description was accurate.

I didn't want to say anything at 1st but now it needs to be told, on all the Xelor revamp threads they said that Sinistro's health will be charges now hence the 3 HP, Sinistro's will now have 3 AP and will cost Frostbite which on the Xelor water branch it is 3 AP cost, it has been told many times, you need to read properly and carefully, I knew already that Sinistro's are getting a huge nerf before testing it so there is no way you can blame lack of information, it was your mistake for not understanding and for not reading the revamp threads and PDF properly
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Score : 540

No one should have to read forums to know how a spell works. OF COURSE there needs to be that information IN-GAME.
I only read the changelogs a couple of times because for me, i get picture of my build in my head better when doing it in the training room than reading a forum post.

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Score : 4069

The training room is another example that a restat isn't necessary, you can restat as many times as you want as long as you are in the room, it to make sure you can make the build you want and not make mistakes, strange that you couldn't figure the things out about sinistro after a few tries in the training room and careful observation. Not trying to be an ass or talking you down, I just don't know how you can manage to get something so simple wrong and then ask for a restat over such a small mistake, I don't think anyone made that similar mistake and wanting a restat either so it is pointless for Ankama to make another restat for 1 person.

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Score : 552

Ahh shoot. So this entire change revolves around nerfing my entire sinistro build.

I'll live with it, just going to feel weird re-learning Xelor again.

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Score : 13935

I haven't looked at the spell descriptions in game yet. If a description is incorrect and a player specs thinking a spell will work as described... it's the devs fault.

The onus should not be on a player to test every spell and situation to see if it works as described. This game isn't in beta *cough*.

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Score : 39

... my poor sinistro may as well be useless. the mobs in PvE just focus him down in one turn, I may as well only have 4 spells on my water xelor now. The extra mechanics don't' even matter if my sinistro dies before I can even do anything else. Even when the mobs can get to me, they still focus down sinistro before hitting me, when before they would ignore it unless it was the only thing they could hit. Please return sinistro to being health based or at least give it a more reasonable number of charges.

it feels like you just completely repurposed water xelor to me. Their role used to be to try and mitigate damage via ap removal. Now it feels like you've just made their entire life revolved around giving other players extra AP. Whatever happened to extra AP being a rare treat? Did someone who pvps complain that AP removal was too strong? In a meta that clearly focused on getting as much AP and MP as possible since you put out of combat caps on it this patch too?
I played water Xelor to be a disabler. I don't want to play multi-element because if I wanted to play a damage per turn racer I would be playing a cra or an iop.

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Score : 24999
Tigerham|2013-07-31 20:15:35
... my poor sinistro may as well be useless. the mobs in PvE just focus him down in one turn, I may as well only have 4 spells on my water xelor now. The extra mechanics don't' even matter if my sinistro dies before I can even do anything else. Even when the mobs can get to me, they still focus down sinistro before hitting me, when before they would ignore it unless it was the only thing they could hit. Please return sinistro to being health based or at least give it a more reasonable number of charges.

it feels like you just completely repurposed water xelor to me. Their role used to be to try and mitigate damage via ap removal. Now it feels like you've just made their entire life revolved around giving other players extra AP. Whatever happened to extra AP being a rare treat? Did someone who pvps complain that AP removal was too strong? In a meta that clearly focused on getting as much AP and MP as possible since you put out of combat caps on it this patch too?
I played water Xelor to be a disabler. I don't want to play multi-element because if I wanted to play a damage per turn racer I would be playing a cra or an iop.
Now imagine how Sadida feel when their dolls die from one attack! Sinistro at least take 3 hits so its even better then seed placed for "taking the hit", while it also has chance to remove AP. Yes Sinistro need improvement and dolls need improvement as well. Ankama seems to hate anything that can be summoned.

As for the multi element stuff. It doesn't require you to cast different elemental spells every turn to keep the dmg boost like someone could think in first place (thought maybe it should). It makes you get 15% dmg boost for each element used and even if you use just 1 type of element every turn (aka if you are mono element and keep using water spells only) you keep gathering the dmg bonus. What's more you can "sacrifice" first 2 turns to get 90% dmg boost from this passive and then you can focus to be mono element for the remaining turn and keep having 100% dmg boost all the time.
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Score : 39

I'm not sure how you quoted me so you'll have to forgive me for not doing so in return. I have a friend who has been playing sadida so I have seen first hand how hard it is to get the dolls out.
as for the multi element damages you commented on? That's irrelevant because as I said, I didn't want to play xelor to be a damage dealer or to be an AP cow for other players. I wanted to play to be a disabler, but now being a disabler seems to be impossible, especially with spells only draining ap half the time and this new replacement for slowdown doesn't have the chance to remove 2 ap at once, can only remove ap on tock turns, and STILL can only be used once per target per turn. The whole reason slow down was only able to be used once per target per turn was because it was low cost with a very high removal chance so that you couldn't spam it on one poor creature/player.

Sinistro used to be overpowered and I admit it, but it legitimately feels useless now. I even just finally managed to get it to live past one turn for once and it LOST A CHARGE AT THE START OF MY TURN TOO. I thought it was gonna be fine since the free mechanics off of master of time (Which I already wanted anyway for the ap removal chance) would let me have more out to make up for it only hitting one target but what's the point if there's no way it's gonna survive more than 2 turns in a PvE situation?

So much for my highest level character (only a measly 53, not even high enough to participate in this new event island since they said it's intended for 85+) because I refuse to respec for damage instead of AP removal, since AP removal has always been Xelor's thing that made it appeal to me, even back when I played dofus. I'm just going to go level up my earth cra instead now since my masq needs to stay in the same level range as my friends that I play with.

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Score : 24999

Funny note: a Xelor with 12AP build can summon 3 sinistros in 1 turn. If it will get 4AP in combot it will be possible for Xelor to make 4 sinistros in 1 turn potentially surounding enemy if it is located near hour cells for xelor to jump around for this set up. This means that the surounded enemy will need to waste 3 attacks to get out and if it doesnt have 1 AP spells but 2AP is the cheapest one then it will have to waste 6 aP to do so and if those sinitros will also reduce his AP he might loose all of his AP in that turn = thats like Stun effect but with high % to happen!

You know Xelor's sinistros suck in pve vs multiple enemies but in 1 vs 1 pvp they own.

As for the sadida - even with 16AP it would be still limited to 2 dolls per turn and if it will loose all WP due to for example critical failure - it will be unable to summon dolls and it have passives that are related to dolls wich will be then completly disabled. Xelor without WP will be just unable to place dial or turn tock into tick (wich seems not worth using anyway if you ask me). In short Xelor doesnt need much WP anymore. Sadida doesn't have such luxury with summons. I wouldn't complain for Sinistro's now unless you never played Sadida. I made xelor on my 2nd account and it is awsome to be able to have sinistro for 4 ap cost right away once the spell is unlocked, instead of having 6AP 1MP 1WP cost for ... seed at early levels as sadida wich made me waste whole turns for several levels till i finally managed to max Doll Seed spell. I just think Ankama hate Sadidas and love Xelors.

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Score : 13935

It seems like every single thread turns into Sadi's are horrible. They have one of the most important skills in the form of Voodoll. Voodoll makes up for a Sadi's short comings in other areas.

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Score : 24999
Gynrei|2013-08-01 14:58:45
It seems like every single thread turns into Sadi's are horrible. They have one of the most important skills in the form of Voodoll. Voodoll makes up for a Sadi's short comings in other areas.
That was only comparing one class to another. You can do the same with different class comparison to Xelor. If you don't want to turn this into sadida topic then why you mention the "so-called-important-skill" aka Voodoll that in fact is one of the worst and not worth using spell outside of UB fight. I'd say xelor's ability to jump back and forth with the use of dial for the 1MP cost after the first turn to move around and even avoid damage by simply doing this even without reaping out AP is far better then the voodoll you have mentioned that die as fast as any other doll (pvp) if not faster (pve). Voodoll on sadida doesn't justify anything - its useless and it need to be jusified by something else but well it is not unless we are meant to have a spell that we will use only for ub fight. Sucks to be honest.

As for the Xelor i can tell it sucks to have Mummification have no effect on solo gameplay. It should do some additonal stuff, maybe used on dial it would keep dial in game even if Xelor wouldn't end turn on hour cell? That would make it handy even if Xelor doesn't have team.
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Score : 3538

I do agree that Sinistro is pretty useless now, but i also agree that it was overpowered before. It would of made much more sense to me to majorly tone down thier damage, than to make them poof after 3 turns, and on top of that they can only hit one target. It really makes it so its not worth it to cast it in most situations. As for all the other types of summons in game, at least they stay in game until they are killed, sins now dont. I had figured after reading a different dev blog that they would at least stay in play if on a dial cell, well that was changed and now this (primarily) water xelor is not happy with changes i was orignally accepting of.

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Score : 39

(wow ok I just noticed the button on the comments section that takes me to the forum thread version.)

Kiku, your argument about blocking someone in with sinistros is kind of weak for justifying the 3 charges. First of all, you can't block paths with them, so I doubt it would allow you to do that even in the rare occasions where the setup time, range, and line of sight would allow for it. I will get into specifics with numbers down below.

Also your complaint about them being charged based trapping people, why wouldn't changing it back to health be a good thing then? Then if they have a strong enough attack they can get out more easily AND it'll work fine in PvE again. Everyone is happy, right?(I mean, where I was in level before the rework, my clock spell would one-shot my own sinistro for example. Which brings me to another point that if you have someone surrounded, depending on where it is compared to your dial spaces, it'd be hard to hit them without hitting your own sinistros so the rest of your turns would be just biding your time to try and keep the person trapped which would be tough to do)
But hey, let's humor this idea. Let's assume the game DOES let you block someone in with sinistros and doesn't count it as blocking a path.
If we are assuming a FAIR PvP setting, rather than one that would be skewed anyway by gear or levels(all too common in this game thanks to both the attack option and that when you issue a friendly challenge it does not tell the other person your level) why are we assuming the xelor is at AP cap and their opponent is not? Since judging by the AP/MP cap that was clearly the meta? Let me entertain the idea of 4 sinsitros: 12 - 4 =/= 6. It would be 8. Even if that somehow wasn't enough to break free, most classes have at least one spell that allows them to use only mp as a resource, too. Plus, by only breaking one, if they can move even one space it would prevent the xelor from being able to truly trap them again because they would have to wait for the other sinistros to die and sinistros have a a -50 lock stat so you don't really have to worry about getting locked. Also, while I am fully aware that not every class can do this, sinistros CAN be shoved around. (or at least, they could before their rework, I don't know if they can now but I assume so)
Also, I don't think it's statistically possible to get 4 sinsitros out first turn (or even "one turn" if you count the setup time required to get the needed AP). Let's assume that the xelor is at both AP and MP cap (12 and 7 respectively) I don't know about top tier gear so I don't actually know how possible this is.
2 AP is spent on the dial, which leaves 10 AP6 of that is spent on 2 sinistros, leaving them with 2devotion, when maxed, costs 1MP, allows 4 uses per turn, and only 2 uses per targetmeaning that they could spend 2 of their mp on themselves for AP bringing them back up to just enough for a third sinistro. (Even if they didn't have devotion upped so that it still cost 3MP, if they have the 7 MP cap they'd still have 1 MP left over) In fact, even if the dial still cost 2 WP and no AP, 14 AP would not be enough to get 4 sinistros out. So you would still need setup time with timekeeper on new xelor (since rollback now applies next turn instead of current)
Alright, so yeah, unless the opponent is standing next to the dial center or an obstacle, that's not gonna be possible on first turn.

Now let's assume we're going for second turn, with the assumption that they spammed timekeeper the previous turn. Timekeeper, at all ranks, only allows 3 uses per turn. Bascially, if you're at the 12 AP cap anyway? even without upping timekeeper to a 1 to 1 ratio and instead keeping it a 1 ap for 3 used ratio, you could still place down the dial and plop timekeeper down the max of 3 times and have 1 ap left to spare, even without casting devotion. Then you could use devotion twice to let yourself still get like a frostbite in or something. (of course, if you had timekeeper up, you could use more offense that first turn)Alright! So, next turn, your xelor has 15 ap. Real easy to get the extra AP to have 16 in order to cast sinistro 4 times.
Here's where it becomes tricky. Sinistro requires line of sight to cast and you can only place it within 3 spaces of yourself. Your opponent in pvp would have to be either really dumb or really desperate to stand in an area of your dial that would allow this to happen, since it would be difficult even with teleporting around the dial to put sinistro on all 4 sides due to line of sight and low range.
So basically the situation you proposed is impossible on first turn and highly improbable on any turn thereafter, but statistically would technically be possible if it doesn't count as "blocking a path", assuming the Xelor had the 4 mechanics needed. I'm not saying it should be possible, just that your argument for why 3 charges is plenty even in PvP is kind of weak. Even if it WERE possible, chances are after breaking free your opponent would be near you and have a good chance of locking you in place, preventing it from happening again. Is that setup time to try and do something that your opponent may not even stand in a good spot for really worth it enough for anyone to use as a plausible strategy?

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Score : 4036
Gynrei|2013-07-31 17:48:13
I haven't looked at the spell descriptions in game yet. If a description is incorrect and a player specs thinking a spell will work as described... it's the devs fault.

The onus should not be on a player to test every spell and situation to see if it works as described. This game isn't in beta *cough*.
There's also the fact that some of these spells actually require a group to test. You can't put slowdown on yourself and make yourself a catalyst, so i'm just chiming in to say that you really can't test everything in a test room.
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Score : 24999

@Tigerham

Rollback does give you up to 3 AP for the next turn with means with 12AP base you will get a chance to have 15AP on the next turn wich will only require you to use Devotion once to make it 16AP and in that case you will be able to make 4 sinistro's in 1 turn.

If your enemy have 12 ap instead of 10 then yes it will have 2AP left ... as if it can do much with 2AP to you anyway while look at yourself: you just did dmg equal to 16AP in 1 turn via sinistros. If the enemy who is surrounded would use mp related spells to get free - it will most likely still be in range of sinistro to get their AP removed on the following turn wich also give Xelor an adventage.

I also feel that summons that have charges fit well for the concept of Xelor who is master of time, however i think that they should allow sinistro to not loose charge per turn if it is on hour cell - wich would be similar to the previous version of sinistro but with buff that it makes sinistro able to take 3 hits before dieing instead of 1.

Also please note that you can block path with sinistros and dial making your opponent either need to waste 3x 2 AP spells to get rid of sinistro to get to you, waste WP for teleport spell or try to go around making him waste turn if you will be still out of range or at least making it waste a lot of AP to get to you.

Also if it comes to positioning the 1st spell from air branch can make your enemy pushed away and then tricked to stand in perfect position if it will want to get "as close as possible" to you and "not in the range of Xelor punishment" aka next to the dial cell.

Another thing is that with timekeepr giving you 3AP, rollback giving you 3AP and Devotion giving you 2AP for 2MP you will have the potential to get 20 AP with 12 base AP! Thats already like double the dmg per turn comparing to a 10 ap build characters. And you want to have more tanky summons? They are already better then dolls and the fact that they loose charge per turn only help you to "re-position them" as you cannot re-summon them.

However there's a small trick: use the air pushing spell on Sinistro to change it's position - this way you can even block those cells that would block the path. It's the same trick as with pandawa's barrel and triple whammy. It's funny how Ankama try to not make it possible with conditions but with the pushing spells we can still do it.

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Score : 4036

Now that I've had more time to play with it, I'm disappointed in aging as I feared. It's not enough damage; you nerfed it too much and you especially nerfed it b/c now you can't crit aging, it has no crit effect on proc and water/air xelors relied on crit a lot for ap removal and it synergized well. It's probably great for fire still but I think you just went overboard lowering the damage and taking away the ability for aging to crit on ap removal. Why did you decide to remove the critical portion of the spell. It's rather unfair it used to crit and now it doesn't. Only the direct damage portion now can crit and before each tick could crit. Now the spell scales really badly with crit which is such a great stat in a multielement build.

We really wanted you to protect aging's role, and I am even seeing a lot of fire/air xelors passing it by, though mango did say it was still decent for fire. I just wish you'd not neutered it so much for air/water.

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Score : 3538

Concerning the spell changes overall they are pretty good, with the one exception being Sinistro.He really should stay in play when hes on the dial but you changed him so he wont. I do think his damage needed to be cut , he was OP but now only he can only hit one target, and only last 3 turns,and his range was cut, and his damage was cut on top of that? Why wasnt cutting his damage greatly enough? But aside from being frustrated with Sinistro's now there is something thats much more important of a question. Weren't we supposed to be support?! I chose to not be a damage dealer, I chose to be suppor,t I built myself to steal Ap not damage, to me that was what a xelor was about. And then you took the Willpower stat away, i had 20 willpower stat, and 5 in gear/wodent. I realize that those of us that want to be support as a main function are in the minority. And that most likely very few people put the majority of their points into willpower instead of crits, or other things. But that doesnt change the question, for those of us that wanted to, why did you take away this as an option? Why was the Willpower stat taken away?!

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Score : 4036
lyricalglitchen|2013-08-06 03:36:32
Concerning the spell changes overall they are pretty good, with the one exception being Sinistro.He really should stay in play when hes on the dial but you changed him so he wont. I do think his damage needed to be cut , he was OP but now only he can only hit one target, and only last 3 turns,and his range was cut, and his damage was cut on top of that? Why wasnt cutting his damage greatly enough? But aside from being frustrated with Sinistro's now there is something thats much more important of a question. Weren't we supposed to be support?! I chose to not be a damage dealer, I chose to be suppor,t I built myself to steal Ap not damage, to me that was what a xelor was about. And then you took the Willpower stat away, i had 20 willpower stat, and 5 in gear/wodent. I realize that those of us that want to be support as a main function are in the minority. And that most likely very few people put the majority of their points into willpower instead of crits, or other things. But that doesnt change the question, for those of us that wanted to, why did you take away this as an option? Why was the Willpower stat taken away?!
You don't really need all that willpower anymore anyway, mobs lose a ton of hyperaction each turn, like 100. Plus the passives in the tree and the effects of crit, you shouldn't really be having a ton of problems removing ap. Heck in a support capacity you can hit someone with slowdown and spam hourglass onto an empty space and they still get the ap. Just invest in crit, you'll get both damage and increased chances to remove ap at the same time.
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