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Smithmagic revamp

By April 10, 2013, 11:00:01
DevTracker
Reactions 279
Score : 13934
bandersnitch|2013-04-16 16:16:50
Here is a short list of corrections which you should make to the revised smithmagic system:

1) First you should gift everyone 10 of the rune removing consumable as they awkwardly experiment with the poorly thought out compensation for our existing rune stockpiles.

(You effectively gave people bronze tokens in exchange for runes of known effect and rarity which is a terrible tradeoff, in addition the modifications to runed items in game did not take into account their existing runes, which again is not compensation, you 'should' have grandfathered-in currently runed items since you are allowing variations with the existing system the additional load on server memory should be trivial)

2) Second when slotting a rune a person should be able to select one bonus and the strength of that bonus will be determined randomly as per whatever algorithm you choose based on rarity etc. additional bonuses can then be added algortihmically.

This mechanic, rather than being 'completely random' allows one to ensure that runes are not completely useless. Alternately, if the bonuses were immediately restricted to the existing elemental nature of the set, then again runes would always provide some 'useful bonus'

I'm sure that this system is buggy as implemented, and judging from the commentary from people who got hosed by the randomization you really should consider some compensation.

In the prior system ANYONE could participate, and YOU ALWAY KNEW WHAT YOU WERE GETTING when you actually modified an item.

The modifications I have proposed will only improve player satisfaction and they still allow ankama to profit from players who want to grind for the 'perfect' item, but they also give the player control to ensure that runing an item improves it's performance, which will preclude a flood of 'crappy' runed items having a lower value than un-runed items.

Seriously, if you would just listen to the player suggestions, and not add blatant profit-grabbing grind mechanics you would have a happier and more consistent player base.

We want stuff to make our characters better, anything that takes time and doesn't have a guaranteed payoff with statistically significant regularity is frustrating and will break the dopamine induced addiction to your electronic brain candy.

I challenge you. Put a poll on the website, ask the players who would prefer my suggestion over your random implementation, I guarantee the players will like mine better.

You should pay ME now, I have enjoyed your beta.

I agree.

The only frustration in the old system was having poor luck getting runes when smashing items. This was no different than having poor luck trying to drop Imperial items from dungeon runs.

The new SmithMagic system includes the same random frustration. It also adds this disgusting hammer business to remove runes because the random aspect has been moved to when a rune is placed onto an item.

I assume Ankama knew full well what they were doing to try and grab money for their cash shop. I might be more forgiving if this system worked as the post above suggests. As it stands now, I am not impressed.
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Score : 606

Even if i Think that the complains from those who worked a lot to have a runed set are very understandable, I think that the new system is rather interesting... IF NOT for a single aspect: the "rune hammer".

IMHO the drop rate of the hammer is the key to decide if this system is bad or good.
I'll elaborate a bit.

For what some of my guild mates saw using legendary runes, the increased chance to have an hight bonus with them is pretty consistent, the problem with legendary is that, even if they add hight bonuses, you have the same chance of the lower level runes to get the kind of bonus you want.

Let's say i'm a pure fire DD, i want intelligence runes and I can go well even with fire+other element damage runes; a legendary rune can give me hight bonuses but i'd have, according to the smithmagick revamp devblog, a 25% chance to receive a damage bonus in my main element wich is kinda low for the efforts that craftng a legendary rune requires.

Basing on this considerations i see two main ways to proceed:

a) focusing on the quantity: make as much runes as possible of the desired level in order to get asap a full set runed with the kind of rune wanted. This should make having a full runed set relatively easy, but the total bonus u get will be lower than the maximum bonus u could have. In the previous example, with 10 rune i'd have a +50ish int while I could have +100

b) focusing on the quality: upgrade powder untile i'll have a legendary rune and then keeping it if it's good or removing it with the hammer. This will allow to get the max or close to max bonus u could have but will be a lot more time consuming.

U could also try to follow the "a" path at first, in order to have a quick upgrade of you're gears, and then path "b", to slowly continue to improve.

maybe one way will result more convenient than the other, maybe we just was lucky and indeed the more chance to roll an hight value of legendary is not so higher than a sparking, but it's still to early to make this kind of considerations.

The only thing i think is clear is that, whatever the way u choose to rune your gears, you'll need A TONS of hammers (let's get serious, who the hell would destroy a white crow amulet to clear another?). The hammer is 600 ogrines in the french boutique (_Click here), wich imho is A LOT.

It's still to early to take conclusions because we coudn't test the drop rate yet, but imho 600 ogrines is a suspicious price... I mean why should i pay so much if the item wasn't so so difficult to drop? But if it was difficult to drop it will make this game definitely ptw.
I know that this is a really long post but i wanted to make as clear as possible how haveing a lot of hammers is crucial for runing items now and how this system could ruin entirely this game.
If anyone share my point of view I ask to bring as much feedback as possible on the hammer drop rate in order to understand if this game is still worth a sub.

Ty for your attention.
Mamba

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Score : 522

Just to toss in my 2 cents:

I like the general idea, and I like how it is linear - allowing more success based on more time invested. However, as a small way to decrease player frustration, what if you made two types of runes instead of just one. When you combine powders into runes, the resulting runes could be classified as either "Offensive" or "Defensive." They could have more interesting names as well (Powerful and Shielding, Aggressive and Passive.... whatever).

The point is, offensive runes would have Damage, dodge and CH damage, while defensive could have resists, lock and HP. Both categories could have the main stats, wisdom and initiative. In this way, if you are building a damage set, you'd trade your defensive runes for offensive runes, and you'd know you were going to get something that at least has a chance to be useful, since you'll get a random damage bonus, a main stat bonus or a generic (wis/init) bonus. If you want a resist set, use defensive runes and you'll get either resists, a main stat or wis/init.

This gives the same sense of progression and randomness the devs seem to be looking for, but adds a small level of control for the players. This will also help to stimulate the economy as people sell/buy/trade the two types of runes. I think this small change would reduce a lot of frustration. It wouldn't make everyone happy, but it is amazing what a little bit of control does to make a completely random situation less aggravating.

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Score : 1028
bandersnitch|2013-04-16 16:16:50
Here is a short list of corrections which you should make to the revised smithmagic system:

1) First you should gift everyone 10 of the rune removing consumable as they awkwardly experiment with the poorly thought out compensation for our existing rune stockpiles.

(You effectively gave people bronze tokens in exchange for runes of known effect and rarity which is a terrible tradeoff, in addition the modifications to runed items in game did not take into account their existing runes, which again is not compensation, you 'should' have grandfathered-in currently runed items since you are allowing variations with the existing system the additional load on server memory should be trivial)

2) Second when slotting a rune a person should be able to select one bonus and the strength of that bonus will be determined randomly as per whatever algorithm you choose based on rarity etc. additional bonuses can then be added algortihmically.

This mechanic, rather than being 'completely random' allows one to ensure that runes are not completely useless. Alternately, if the bonuses were immediately restricted to the existing elemental nature of the set, then again runes would always provide some 'useful bonus'

I'm sure that this system is buggy as implemented, and judging from the commentary from people who got hosed by the randomization you really should consider some compensation.

In the prior system ANYONE could participate, and YOU ALWAY KNEW WHAT YOU WERE GETTING when you actually modified an item.

The modifications I have proposed will only improve player satisfaction and they still allow ankama to profit from players who want to grind for the 'perfect' item, but they also give the player control to ensure that runing an item improves it's performance, which will preclude a flood of 'crappy' runed items having a lower value than un-runed items.

Seriously, if you would just listen to the player suggestions, and not add blatant profit-grabbing grind mechanics you would have a happier and more consistent player base.

We want stuff to make our characters better, anything that takes time and doesn't have a guaranteed payoff with statistically significant regularity is frustrating and will break the dopamine induced addiction to your electronic brain candy.

I challenge you. Put a poll on the website, ask the players who would prefer my suggestion over your random implementation, I guarantee the players will like mine better.

You should pay ME now, I have enjoyed your beta.

There, the man said it all. Most of the people are not happy with the new random rune system and you didn't improve the gameplay at all with it. Tbh I don't know a single person in my guild who is happy with it, and my friends outside guild too. Not one.

Listen to players and you will have more happy community and overall gameplay will improve = you will make more new players and more money, do stuff like this and even your old players will leave. I will leave for sure if this new "system" doesn't change.

Femto
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Score : 24982

No more leadership rune's? Omg seriously? I hope you will implement leadershiop bonus to more items now as it's very dissapointing. I bought leadership rune's for the leaderhip bonus, not to make them give me some initiative or dmg bonus... seriously. Thats one big failure. You should allow sadida, eniripsa and osamodas a chance to get leadership from rune's.

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Score : 2337

The whole destroy identical item mechanic to remove a rune is a terrible idea (how did the devs not realize this?) when considering most people will only bother adding runes to rare sets. Getting an identical set just to re-rune is madness. The only realistic option is this hammer, which if not made an extremely common item, will simply not be in high enough supply. On average, a single player will likely need to employ a hammer 100 or more times to get their set right for 100+ sets. This is when considering there is only a 25% chance to get the stat the player wants and there being 25 runes to slot.

In light of this, despite what the drop rate is for the hammer, there is still too much randomization in what bonuses you get from runes when considering the effort required to obtain a full set worth of runes. You say you care about the rune system not being limited to the elite, but the amount of grinding it would take for even one attempt (of many) for each slot assures that casual players will not be making much use of this system due to the extreme amount of time required.

This brings to light the major issue of the amount of power this rune set is intended to give compared to a player who doesn't utilize it. A player who goes through this extreme, frustrating hassle to correctly rune an entire set of 25 runes for example, will be at a 125% damage advantage over someone who simply can't afford or put in the 100+ hours to grind the runes. For how frustrating and harsh this system is, it's just a matter of time before you increase the gap between the elite and casual player even more, going against a major aspect of the change all together.

Speaking of 25 runes, the sharp jump in how many runes available to slot basically makes any set in the 90 range pointless now for players aiming to max their potential (most people in general in other words). This wouldn't be such a problem on its own if it wasn't for the little fact that it ruins several UB sets. In regards to this, I believe certain sets should be excluded from this strict level lock on the number of rune slots and be allowed to still be desirable and effective by having the max rune slots allotted to them. Or as an alternative, bring the lvl of all UB sets to a minimum item level of 100 to make them still desirable and worth the effort to acquire.

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Score : 3114

how does the hammer work? Is it taking the rune out of an item in a way in which you end up with the rune and the clean item, or it destroys the rune and you end up with clean item?

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Score : 4006

Destroys the rune.

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Score : 24982

They shoudl simply increase the chance to get rune or make it so that it's 100% to get rune from item but the rune obtained will be unknown of type. However once the rune is obtained it should be clear what stats it add. Making stats revealed only when it is applied to an equipement is not good. And removing Leadership rune is also very bad. I don't care if iop get leadership bonu son an item if he wanted dmg % bonus he will destroy the rune even if it would add him initiative. Why? Because he didn't liked the bonus. Runes for me were only good for Leadership. Now you removed even this, even though it's random. It's far worse then it was before.

If you could at least bring back the chance to receive Leadership from rune i wouldn't be even so much frustrated about the whole rune revamp. I would be even happy knowing that i can get leadership on my low level equipement and so that i don't need to search for +1Leadership equipements that would destroy my set bonus because i could simply add rune to my current set. All the hope i had in runes vanished. And there are no new sets with leadership added. How much hate toward Sadida you have... Every other class can change equipements at will. Only Sadida and Osamodas are stuck with crappy stats from equipements that they don't like, only because these items give leadership... It is simply unfair and it lack of balance. I call it an in-direct nerf for Sadidas.

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Score : 4006

How about a craftable tool that when used on a rune inspects it and shows you what the rune is?

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Score : 3403

bought 10 hammers, used em all up in 2 minutes trying to get at least anything related to fire/crits on my legendary bow. nice politics, i can see ankama going scrooge mcduck diving c:

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Score : 24982
khackt|2013-04-19 21:42:38
bought 10 hammers, used em all up in 2 minutes trying to get at least anything related to fire/crits on my legendary bow. nice politics, i can see ankama going scrooge mcduck diving c:
Omg those are boutique items? I thought ankama will not make it p2w (pay to win) but they are changing everything they said! I hope those hammers will drop from monsters or maybe we coudl get them from daily quest reward/ challange. These things that happen to Wakfu recently... make the game worse and worse... only Frigost is cool.
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Score : 13934
Exelenore|2013-04-18 17:58:09
The whole destroy identical item mechanic to remove a rune is a terrible idea (how did the devs not realize this?) when considering most people will only bother adding runes to rare sets. Getting an identical set just to re-rune is madness. The only realistic option is this hammer, which if not made an extremely common item, will simply not be in high enough supply. On average, a single player will likely need to employ a hammer 100 or more times to get their set right for 100+ sets. This is when considering there is only a 25% chance to get the stat the player wants and there being 25 runes to slot.

In light of this, despite what the drop rate is for the hammer, there is still too much randomization in what bonuses you get from runes when considering the effort required to obtain a full set worth of runes. You say you care about the rune system not being limited to the elite, but the amount of grinding it would take for even one attempt (of many) for each slot assures that casual players will not be making much use of this system due to the extreme amount of time required.

This brings to light the major issue of the amount of power this rune set is intended to give compared to a player who doesn't utilize it. A player who goes through this extreme, frustrating hassle to correctly rune an entire set of 25 runes for example, will be at a 125% damage advantage over someone who simply can't afford or put in the 100+ hours to grind the runes. For how frustrating and harsh this system is, it's just a matter of time before you increase the gap between the elite and casual player even more, going against a major aspect of the change all together.

Speaking of 25 runes, the sharp jump in how many runes available to slot basically makes any set in the 90 range pointless now for players aiming to max their potential (most people in general in other words). This wouldn't be such a problem on its own if it wasn't for the little fact that it ruins several UB sets. In regards to this, I believe certain sets should be excluded from this strict level lock on the number of rune slots and be allowed to still be desirable and effective by having the max rune slots allotted to them. Or as an alternative, bring the lvl of all UB sets to a minimum item level of 100 to make them still desirable and worth the effort to acquire.

I agree with the above statements. Only point I want to make is the new system in no way makes gear below 100 useless. The time and effort required to slot that many runes is crazy. I slotted the current gear sets I use. The difference between a set below level 100 and above is this... instead of 6 useless runes, i have 15.

I actually don't even have 15 because i don't bother to rune the second slot since the first failed to give me a bonus i needed. Hammers simply are not obtainable to enjoy this system. The enjoyment being, try try again. We're throwing runes at gear to get the bonuses we want. Compared to the old, throwing gear at the recycler to get the bonuses we want. The only improvement is a cash shop grab by Ankama.
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Score : 2042

Just a little note - there's only a 20% chance of getting your main element, unless you count crit dmg (as ankama have done). You would need 100% crits in order for crit dmg to equal elemental dmg so personally I wouldn't even include that when calculating. I made another thread here with more figures but to sum it up:

  • a "perfect" damage set it would take 375 maging attempts (225k ogrines)
  • a "perfect" damage set for duel element users, it would take 1500 maging attempts (900k ogrines)
  • a "good" damage set (3%-5% dmg) would take 125 attempts for single element (75k ogrines)
  • a "good" damage set (3%-5% dmg) for duel element would take 500 attempts (300k ogrines)
  • an "average" damage set (1%-5% dmg) would take 75 attempts (45k ogrines)
  • an "average" damage set (1%-5% dmg) for duel element would take 300 attempts (180k ogrines)
note: these calculations are done with legendary runes, which seem to have a pretty even spread of powers

As you can see, even to get a rune with the dmg you want will take 75 attempts for an entire set, 5 runes for each piece. In order to mage a set with the dmg you want (regardless of the power), it'll take months without buying hammers. By the time you get a set you like, there will be more out with better stats, forcing you to start over again. Forget about kamas, people will start trading in hammers. I had a similar problem in another game I use to play - people wouldn't even accept gold for high level items anymore but instead only sold them for potions, which were bought with rl money. I really don't want this game to descend into a game where you need to spend rl money to compete at the highest level, especially as we already spend rl money to sub and to buy makas/insigs/deco/pets etc. One time purchases with rl money is ok. Spending thousands of pounds/euros/dollars etc trying to get the set you want for your chars is not. I understand why Ankama have done this as it generates a lot of money for them but surely having a lot of happy customers is better than milking people for as much as they can and forcing people to quit as they cannot compete.
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Score : 948

Before the patch, I had reasons to actually try and get some runes for my equips.
Now I don't even bother ... every crap item I get is crushed to make runes for sale.
My bags are a mess of random powders and runes.
The system is too random to be any good.
There should be a way to identify the rune before using it on an item.

Please bring the old system back, it was a lot more reliable and useful.

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Score : 2260

I want three days of hard work for powders to have SENSE, not a shitty +4 strenght rune. Putting it on glorious legendary bow is nearly a blasphemy.

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Score : 3470

Do we have a comprehensive list of the new rune effects yet? We've all seen the 3/2/2 resists, 5/5% damages, 10 stat runes. How do the prospecting, dodge, lock, and wisdom runes scale, though? Wakfu Elements is incomplete and Wakfu-world doesn't have them at all.

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Score : 1387

They updated it on the first page, but I'll post here:

  • Lock, HP (Lock +2 to +10, HP +3 to +15)
  • Dodge, HP (Dodge +2 to +10, HP +3 to +15)
  • Wisdom, Initiative (Wisdom +1 to +2, Initiative +2 to +10)
  • Prospecting, Initiative (PP +1 to +2, Initiative +2 to +10)


Yup, you read that right, max wis/pp is +2 per rune.
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Score : 3470

Aw! ;.; Thanks~

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Score : 2099

I just wish Smithmagic was an actual profession. It would make so much more sense that way.

Ideally, the profession would also allow us to identify the names of runes, not the specific numbers of the bonuses, but the ingame name of the rune i,e, Steam Gem, Lava Gem, Tackle Gem etc. This would still leave the stats up to pure luck, BUT give us a better idea of what we are putting into our equipment.

You would level up only by smashing, combining and creating runes. The higher level you are the more proficient you'd be at getting slightly more powder per item and identifying higher level runes. Any runes, identified or not, could still be slotted by any level player.

The profession would allow us to refine the use of runes, perfect our gear strengths and give players more interest into using Smithmagic runes in their gear.

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