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Class Revamp 2020 - Masqueraider

By [Ankama]WAKFU - ADMINISTRATOR - December 13, 2019, 16:00:00
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Score : 1293

Just to throw another idea into the mix:

Psynapse Current:
Comes in contact
Psychopath mask -2 MP

Psynapse idea
Comes in contact
if Psychopath mask is equipped at beginning of turn: Stabilize target
 

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Stabilisation is usually on spells with a cooldown tho

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addaaa|2020-01-14 14:05:29
True. couldn't think of other condition. I just really want stabilize on mask.
then how about: after dance of death Psynapse can stabilize for first use in same turn?

I mean you totally could have stabilisation on a mask since they will have a pseudo-cooldown now
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I have seen some interesting Ideas here, but I'll be honest, most of you seem to be trying to juystify the clone's existance. If it really is a problem it should be removed or turned into something actually original/usefull.
Trying to ballance a literal problem isn't really going to make it good, just less of a problem.

My vote would be to get rid of it in order to get something more original to the class itself, instead of a sran-double-but-more-usefull-not-really.

I like the idea of swapping heals for armour, would erase the problem of healling resistance, while making him vulnerable to things that hit the life directly. I don't mind having a weakness, being against something just because it has a downside is counter productive in "ballancing" discussions.

I like the idea of masks being free, I dislike the idea of "unlocked during combat". Does that mean I have to do something in order to unlock a mask? If so, No. I want to use my masks to do something, not do something to use my masks.

I dislike the idea of using all buff at once, I also dislike not having a perpetual buff, but a insta buff instead. The masks should dictate the gameplay, swapping them should change your approach to the situation. Nobody wants the core dinamic of the class to be swaped with a simple buff spell.
 

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They siad masks would have a perpetual AND an instabuff.

Also what do you dislike about unlocking masks as charges?

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X-IV|2020-01-16 11:52:54
Then maybe I misinterpreted it, but it looks like to me they will have a first and second turn buff. Maybe the second turn buff is actually permanent as long as you keep the mask, but I didn't see it this way.

Also I don't like having to do stuff first to unlock a mask. Having it as free spells on the third spell bar however sounds great. I think they need to be more clear with their intentions.

This line is what bothers me:
"You can wait until you unlock three masks in the fight and then put them on to take advantage of the three immediate bonuses (...)"

Yes.

It means each mask will have an active effect (when you put it on or on an ally) and an passive effect (which triggers at the beginning of your turn), so if you have all 3 masks charged up, you can get the active effect from all 3, but you will only get the passive effect next turn from the last one, since it's the one you put on last and will then get it every turn until you swap the mask again.
I expect allies will not get the passive effects.
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cody5 do you ever get the impression that your opinion isn't necessary in every topic, on every thread?

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I would like each elemental spell to adapt to the role according to the mask
for example: Fracture (damage and retire armor in zone) change to give armor in zone by support mask

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That would add too much versatility, there has to be a cost for spell slots, if a spell could do many things, it would have to have very low power.

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I enjoy classy masqueraded passive.

It does require a new playstyle. But it actually does quite a bit.

To buff this passive to be more useful I think a passive to allow masq clone to go first should be added.

For double flaming Hornito to actually work.

You can actually achieve full classy masq stacks on turn one along with buffing everyone around you 20% and move any ally you want pretty much anywhere in the map.

The setup is as follows.

Turn on put on air mask. Walk next to an ally cast double.

Double spams classerole back and forth from masq to ally. With classic mask on this gives everyone 20% and gives the clone 11mp. Then you use shcerzo twice.

Bam first turn 100% stacks on classy masq.

My recommendation is this.

New passive.

Lazy masq.-the masquerader has let his clone do so much work. He has become lazy. - masq clone now goes first. +2ap to clone-2ap to masq. You receive -15% damage that clone takes. Leftover ap no longer transfer to clone but instead give you resistance/lock for every leftover ap.

This will allow you to use your double
Flaming hornito. Because clone will go first and allow you to position your double flaming masq next to enemies.

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Honestly spirit goes first would be a really fun passive and not that broken:
Pro - you get to position and buff yourself before your real turn
Con - You practically skip your spirit's first turn and can't transfer AP

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Posting this here because I should have originally instead of the other thread. Mods can remove old post if need be -

Two big things ive always advocated for a masqueraider revamp and still think need to happen are as follows 

1. Removal of the three masks as active spells, add them to the third bar similar to drhellzerker or pushed into an interface like the gobgob on osamodas (third bar is probably much more realistic). This would make room for 3 new actives for masqueraider and also help clean up their spell deck to use other useful spells. In my opinion masqueraider suffered greatly with the spell deck systems introduction. They have so many tools that you want in a fight but not enough room to use them so you're stuck pre dungeon making decisions on what you think you should get rid of only to realize mid fight that you screwed up. Some might argue that its a good thing and promotes some form of skill ceiling but I cant think of many other classes that have to make those choices.

2. Synergy between the fire branch and the air/water trees. As it stands now fire just seems left out, you get significantly more out of your single target spells over all and the aoe spells in the fire tree dont do enough damage per ap to make them worth using. Yes you can use the air tree to help position aoes for the fire tree to take advantage of but its just not worth the effort.

A final note I suppose is that I agree with the changes proposed, armor generation through the classic mask sounds amazing, psychopath mask removing resistance from enemies sounds great (people will likely still prefer enutrofs but if they can debuff multiple enemies it might help masqueraider stand out more. Would need to come at some form of sacrifice to be balanced though.)

Please just don't gut the dodge mechanic and theme, I love masqueraider being a class that uses dodge consistently as a stat and gets rewarded for it. Its always felt really unique as a concept and it also rewards the masqueraider player with rear damage potential for having large amounts of dodge when their spells aren't enough to get them to the back of an enemy.

Anyway I know this feedback is extremely late considering the post date but I hope you guys find it useful as someone who has enjoyed playing masqueraider on multiple servers since it was added to the game.

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I disagree with having dodge have a reward like now, it's just a really borring mechnic.
I think the best way to have ood dodge mechanic is to either have some spell/mechanic that makes you unlockable for a turn, or have effects that reward succesfull dodges (like coward mask +1MP)

I agree with everything else though, gives us some AoE water and air spells.

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Fire branch should be discussed. It's an odd branch. AoE in of itself is niche having an entire branch full of while having completely single target spells in every other branch isn't nice.

I had an idea for an Air Spell that you could pull two enemies and cause collision between them for better synergy between the branches, and an Air spell that turns melee enemies back to you(Perhaps casablanca? )

Fire debuffing multiple enemies is great.  The condition to have to start with the mask on already is a great conditional..I can see Classablanca or Whipkick going into fire branch and moving psykotik into air, that'd be nice.

I think rewarding Masq for moving around the map could improve gameplay for the class as well. Giving it a bonus for how far they've travelled from their starting location.

Getting rid of heal is already the best thing that could've happen to the class. It's like 3 different roles in one class, I personally think the class shines the best for it's mobility and positioning abilities and should be based around that idea, giving armor sounds like a tacked on bonus especially for a class without an earth branch.

Larger pushes on Coward seems kind of awful, and lack control for powerful positioning(since nothing really changes for push length on collision). I think increasing it by 1 push would be interesting. As to choose between being a positioner on a turn or using it for overall mobility. But then again I don't know how well collision will work on the class after the update.

Edit: Didn't mean to cut off fire branch discussion. Having a disconnected synergy in branches will lead to bad gameplay. It's like Rogues Air and Earth, they're so disconnected they're unusuable in the same build.

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i worry about the removal of heals. As it is, at lvl 200 i find it hard for masq to be useful in high stasis content. The one thing i can do is heal.. fairly well though i have the restriction of needing to be in melee. If they take this away, then i feel like they should give us something very significant in return, especially since they said they want to give the class an overall buff. Sounds like they want to give it a protector role, which might be a little sad for me because up to this point masq is my only healer. 

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cody5|2020-05-06 19:32:22
I disagree with having dodge have a reward like now, it's just a really borring mechnic.
I think the best way to have ood dodge mechanic is to either have some spell/mechanic that makes you unlockable for a turn, or have effects that reward succesfull dodges (like coward mask +1MP)

I agree with everything else though, gives us some AoE water and air spells.

More rewards for dodging that aren't just "here's mastery" are what i'm referring to. 

Things like Dodging gives an MP via coward mask or Dodging gives crits goes away at end of turn, dodging removes res, dodging gives FD

Things like that - keep the class identity of being an artful dodger while making it more interesting
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I mean as long as it's not another fluctuation, i'm in

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Honestly, don't listen to community. Just have your own vision of the class and give it to us. So we explore and decide. And masqueraider isn't top of the top classes, it's fun but a bit childish. And those ugly masks(more mature version fit him more). Doing like people want makes everything same... Boring world of equals, and ppl who have some more experience can't use this as advantage, - cause everything is set for mass.

Those who think masqueraider is very super class, He have very clear weak points, - if he can't heal you can delete him. 

People here talks like this... - I use masqueraider as dodger I want his dodge path to be boosted (hello, I use masqueraider without dodge, - I don't care if you remove it, I will make use of it whatever you make). Something that everybody likes and can use, almost always is crap. The best of masqueraider is that he is very mobile, and if he is bad for any map or dungeon you can use him as second healer(he's not super imba tank, he almost always takes double damage to his health). Squishy, mobile. 

Please just use, your professional team to make us happy.

Last, I want to notice that I lack of passives for masqueraider, there are only few, others fit only 1 role. You can't use your imagination for masqueraider. 

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MiniMikeh|2020-05-08 17:39:56
I have the same problem with enutrofs fire tree. It feels so disconnected and I only touch firedamp explosion to move mines lol... I don't want the masks fire tree to go through the same problem of only picking the one spell on it that removes the most res and nothing else. 



The thing with my rogue was it could neither use Distance + anything or melee + anything because Rogue didn't benefit from anything(Bombs didn't get crit or  rear and there would be zero reason to use Berserk there's no synergy)

My worry is that new Masq will have a similar theme,They will lose their crit bonus(Masks are losing their bonus), and rear bonus(We don't really have one other than the one from the collision passive). The only reason to go rear would be because they have Classtanet/whipkick. Then we'll be stuck with really hoping we can fully go down melee without any repercussion (Not going to happen, you'll lose mastery)I'd prefer if they potentially had both, where rear would be  powerful for damage Masq and Crit would be  powerful for support.

Which leads me to the Armor thing. the only reason I like armor is because it's the only clever way to give clone durability while potentially giving  Masq something to do while they can't Deeps. But I don't see how having masq heal is a great addition to the class in favor of a stronger feature like positioning/mobility or buffing.

I really do think the best thing Masq has is their mobility. Not a single class competes with them in positioning/damage. Positioning is 100% out classed by  Panda, no doubt.  But damage while doing it, they're just extremely efficient. I think doubling down on this would be great. I think the idea of them being able to save anyone due to mobility would be some cool stuff.
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There's not very many reasons to take a masq in high level dungeons competitively right now, but at least it can heal. I agree that the mobility/positioning/dmg is probably the most fun part, but masq is a sorta melee/assassin type, they need some kind of sustain to stay alive; healing fits this role and a support role conveniently. However, If they take it in radical new directions that feel very masq-y, then ill be happy. I also agree that aoe spells could use a little touch-up to make them interesting.

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T1gerator|2020-05-08 17:20:33
cody you came into the xelor thread and said that the dial was unnecessary

now you're in the mask thread saying that dodging is unnecessary

it literally feels like you want every class to have nothing unique with no quirks to their combat at all

we have 18 classes, they can't all just stand in front of something and hit it. these mechanics are literally the reasons why people play certain classes and you're arguing in favour of dropping all the quirks, all the time.

what's worse is that noone can say "i disagree" and you just stop. every single person who posts in any of these threads gets a response from you about how you hate their idea, about how they should be thinking a certain way (your way), and how they're wrong because they actually enjoy playing with the class's particular quirks and want more of it. you're not giving people room to talk about the classes they play and enjoy because you're busy asking for a version of the class that you personally would play.

just play iop, be satisfied with it, and leave the other classes alone.

Sigh, if you would actually read what I wrote, you'd see that I wasn't against dodging, dodging is currently one of the core themes of the masquaraider and personally I want to keep it this way as no other class really does it at the moment.
The thing I am against is flat passives: passives that just give you more stats or give you more stats just for building some other stat. They are boring and lock you into a build just because they are strong instead of giving you new or modifying base mechanics to give you an advantage (example coward mask giving you a MP whenever you succesfully dodge), I want classes to reward you for something you do in the fight, not just giving you build limitations like souveneer items.
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Any who advocate the removal of the clone are missing the point. Even if it inevitably hurts Masq's viability somewhat it is a key part of what makes the class so fun, no clone, no deal. Accept no substitutes.

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Oh I hope they keep the clone, I just wish it scaled better.
On lower lvls it's way too strong, but at higher levels it's too weak.

While I would like to see it have further changes, the simplest fix imo would for it to just have half your AP + carry over (maybe identical AP and no carry over as a passive?)

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Got an idea for a cool passive

As Mauquai (A masq player from Discord) said Masq is mix of martial arts and dancing - in Western martial arts there's the technique of going with the strikes thrown at you instead of resisting them

So the passive would work with single target attacks (maybe some AoE) where the Masq would remove one mp to reduce the attack's damage. The passive could work "per 2 attacks reduced, from this passive's mechanic, you lose 1 mp on your next turn"

Also A spell that lets u party/ dance with an enemy would be interesting e.g you spend 1 mp and the enemy loses an mp - a force of will scenario where you'd rape the enemy of mp. Like if u win ur force of will then the enemy dances and loses 1 mp if u fail the enemy doesn't dance - this is my explanation for why the enemy would lose mp or not - it'd be cool if the mob does an emote but Ankama don't have to put that much detail. Or make the passive remove 1mp in battle and each hit reduced from the passive removes up to 3 mp and that's the max the rest of the hits wouldn't be resisted.

Also a breakdance spell - AoE. SO in my head the Masque would lie on his back and spin around in a circle with the iconic Masque chains in both hands, costing an mp or 2 + ap to cast the spell and damaging enemies in a square around the Masque - the spell could either make the enemies trip - which mechanics-wise would remove 1 mp and maybe some lock and doge or the spell could rotate those enemies like a square conveyor belt. The spell would also deal damage - doesn't have to be high necessarily, I'm just stating this because if the Masque where to spin like a beyblade on it's back with it's chains out it'd hurt.

About the armour spells - they could work. I had an idea that the Masque still spits at an ally or enemy, though this time the spit doesn't heal them but forms a slimy bubble that gives them armour but slows them down, they explanation why'd it slow you down is because the character affected by the armour spit spell would have to go through a thick liquid. Like how the mud tiles remove an extra mp this spell would remove 1 extra mp each time you moved. This spell could also be cast on enemies to also slow them down, but also it'd give them armour as a positive. 

Another armour spell could also be a ball of liquid that absorbs a character and gives them armour e.g 15% of Masq's total hp and while the target has that armour, even if the armour is at 1, the bubble would act as a barrier and reduce some damage. Or you could make this spell last 2 to 3 turns on a target and once the 3 turns are out the target loses it's armour and the bubble's barrier.

For the 3rd type of armour - it could be like the Sacrier's Sanguine armour, but work like this "armour a base of x armour onto target +5% per wakfu points you currently have when you cast this spell". The wakfu thing is, in my head, the reason why Masques' spit are magical and strong like their healing properties or armouring properties, so having more wakfu at the time the spell was cast would increase the amount armoured. You'd spit at a target or enemy and they'd get armoured for a good amount but become stabilized or the target would get it's mp set to zero and it's dodge to zero (maybe lock) and it'd be stabilised. Why? or What's the explanation for the loss of mobility, in my head the spell would be cast from 1-3 tiles and the Masque would spit an enormous amount of spit that it covers a target and solidifies like the Sacrier's Sanguine armour, but you'd be incased in the armour and thus move slower or be encased in the armour but be stuck to the ground and thus be stabilized or be stuck to the ground, so stuck that you can't even move or use mp - this could also be described as the target being incased in solidified spit like how insects get stuck in amber.(or remove mp on that target. The reason why I put this in brackets is that it doesn't fit with the imagery of the spell in my head and because another armour spell I said already had this mechanic).

For the Last Armour like spell, it'd be an AoE one. So the Masque would spit a glyph on the ground that would have a circular form. It'd be described as a bubble and the glyphs would be inside the bubble, so if you'd stand on a glyph you'd be standing inside the bubble. To targets inside the bubble you'd get 20% damage reduced from ranged attacks/ attacks from outside of the bubble, like wise characters in the bubble that were to attack outside of the bubble would either remove armour/ hp from the bubble or the attack would do less damage. The bubble would have hp like a blockade and work like a blockade in some ways, it would redirect 20% of the damage of ranged attacks towards the bubble. At the end of the Masqueraider that cast the bubble spell, targets inside the bubble, both allies and enemies, would gain armour. Entering the bubble would cost 2mp - like how moving through Hupper's wall of light works, entering the bubble could remove dodge from a target that has just entered the bubble and each tile moved inside the bubble costs 2 mp, targets bordering the bubble would also be locked as the bubble could have some lock due to it being sticky. Though once a target starts its turn in the bubble it won't need to use 2 mp to move one tile anymore - that's only when you're entering the tile. The bubble could be "popped" (destroyed) if an enemy were to hit the bubble itself.

I wrote these down on discord and copy n pasted them here.

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I just started a mask and ... wow this is such a blast to play.. Don't go for deep changes imo, just do some passives revamp so we don't have to slot in 2-3 general passives because half class passives are just not good.

Instead of making class mask increase the armor you give, make it store 30% of the damage you do on wakfu spenders as armor for self. You can give this armor to a friend if you  target him with a dart (instead of current healing) + some additionnal effect depending on the dart (final damage, AP protection, swapping positions ...)  or keep this armor for you as a melee bruiser mechanic if you wish too.

This way you can have a viable melee supporter (they tend to be ranged, so this would be a nice niche to fit in) and a more defensive stance than psycho

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Well since masks might get charges or something, how about a portion of WP you spend is converted to armour and the active part of classic/coward mask is granting armour to whover you cast it on (you or an ally)?
So if you swap masks a lot the armour will suck but if you charge it up you can put  big armour on soeone every few turns?

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cody5|2020-08-20 17:35:42
Well since masks might get charges or something, how about a portion of WP you spend is converted to armour and the active part of classic/coward mask is granting armour to whover you cast it on (you or an ally)?
So if you swap masks a lot the armour will suck but if you charge it up you can put  big armour on soeone every few turns?

Spend WP to give armor to ally? Please nope, it just literally another Feca... 
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Tht's not what I said? I said that as you spend WP, you ALSO get stacks tat can gie armour to someone, you wouldn't loose any WP.
Also feca doesn't even do that atm.

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Two ideas, one I think everybody can agree with the other is up to you:
1 - Similar to Sram's shadow traps and/or Foggernaut's Stasification spell, have the 3 masks in a third row of spells so we don't have to occupy up to 3 spell slots just to be switching masks.
2 - A passive that reduces the damage and heal of Masqueraider's clone in exchange for two things:
the clone no longer passing damage to the Masqueraider AND if the masqueraider dies, he is instantly revived in the clone's place. (and yes, to balance things out, this should definitely come with a compensation debuff on the clone)

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2 seems very strong, how about:
It still transfers damage, but now you can't use it to reveive other people, using dance of death swaps you with the spirit now instead?

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cody5|2020-08-21 10:46:05
Tht's not what I said? I said that as you spend WP, you ALSO get stacks tat can gie armour to someone, you wouldn't loose any WP.
Also feca doesn't even do that atm.

 
Well, there is a passive that let Feca give +100% bonus Armor per Wakfu Point for all spell, so in my opinion that why still need a class that have stack condition to only give extra armor? 
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With Feca and Sadis why do we need another suport oriented class with Armor? I think that the devs need to rethink this concept for Masqs

Fire Branch being Aoe focuse is cool but quality over quantity is what i want for Aoe Fire Masq, what is the point of 4 out 5 skills of the fire branch beeig Aoe if just one of then doesn't suck but still is kinda clumsy to use, i'm use Ecas for example, their Earth Branch only have one aoe skill and it's more viable than Masq  entire branch.

Masq strength has always been the versality but in high lvl content it turns into his main weakness, i feel like the class is completely disposable in the currrent meta, why would you prefer a Masq over classes that takes more advantage of the -200 resist debuff from enutrofs? No need for an off-healer if pure damage dealers can kill the enemys before they even play, something that masqs can hardly do unfortunately.

The other role is the positioning, i think Masqs are quite underrated in this aspect like, there is nothing a Masq can't do in a radius of 6-8 cells, the air branch is decent but still lacks a teleportation skill that don't need a target and of a course cassablanca is lackluster to say the least.

I hope the devs tackle this issues, i support this rework and i'm completely fine with removing the heal aspect of the class turning it less versatile like some people are saying in this topic, but it needs to come with an overall buff.

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Time to start tearing up this thread again now that the Masq Revamp is on Beta.

 

Granthese|2020-08-30 03:06:50
Come again?

I would imagine that we could expect feedback from Masq players now that they've had time to test the revamped Masqs. I'm curious to hear their input on the changes given my interest in rolling a Masq.
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Come again?

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