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I guess you're being stubborn. I don't see why you perceive the study of games simply as an interpretation of games through other fields. I don't even know where do you see Psychology inside the principle. Psychology does in fact have a say in gaming [the act to play a game], but not games themselves [the virtual system would be virtual regardless of the human perspective on the system]. If that's going to invalidate the study of games as an academic field I guess that is to say all those bearded old academics from Cinema should stop studying Cinema, stop making long and complex analysis of the constructions and elements implied at every shot, burn their Diplomas and starting coursing Neurology.

Of course that Games as a media can be interpreted through Linguistics, as an human activity can be interpreted through Neurology, through Psychology, through Biology, through Historiography, through Anthropology, through Sociology, through Economy and so on. As literature, cinema, music, paintings can also be interpreted through these fields. But that's not to say these fields are the only possible way to interpret these bodies. Each one of them have an unique nature filled with their own elements that will form their substance. Each one of them will have their own concepts that are unique to themselves. To say ludology doesn't have its own array of concepts to deal with games is just a downplay. What is the concept of Paidea then? Ludus? Player? Interaction Modules?

Even if Ludology could not be regarded as a “major science”[if you're not aware Science is just a module to deal with and organize knowledge] that wouldn't invalidate the study of games and its findings, or in this case the principle of games, because this principle doesn't directly rely on other fields to exists and thus cannot be considered an arbitrary observation. It is in fact an observation of an objective reality governed by natural laws that are unique to its own substance, the quantification of a nature universal to all games. To say Ludology cannot be regarded as a scholarly study would be the same to say Musicology is not a scholarly study. It just doesn't make any sense at all.


It seems the forum cut part of your text, could you please post again?


I find hard to believe a level 100 player would be in serious risk of death in a level 100 fight because one gearslot is useless, or make the fight excruciatingly difficult because of it. Unless the rest of his gear is crap of course, but being situational, it doesn't make this exploit impossible. One gearslot doesn't represent even ¼ of a players damage output. And remember that this isn't a fight with 5 or 15 levels of difference, but is a Makabra level 0 receiving experience from a level 100 fight. I'm sure that is a big amount of experience for the Makabra if there isn't any diminishing return mechanisms in it. To level it from 0 to 15 shouldn't take much effort from the experience level 100 fight would give. The reason why a Makabra acquires a level delay from its user is likely because the Makabra's total experience curve is more steep than a player's total experience curve.

As an speculation I cannot give any guarantees, but if Makabra's purpose is also to provide a competitive equipment on level 100 like you and Zeitzbach argue, I think its fair to assume they'll update it, otherwise the Makabra will lag behind new tiers and become useless as a lv100 equipment, since low tier gear will become cheaper and cheaper and more accessible as new tier gear is introduced, it will be easier to acquire regular items than to normalize the level delay of a Makabra when the player achieves character level 100. If they don't update then Makabras purpose is only and just only relieve the player from the effort to search for gear while leveling.


The effort is not marginal, they're quite distinct actually. A player who doesn't use a Makabra will have to change its equipment sooner or later, otherwise it'll eventually be outshined even by a Makabra. The player is forced to obtain a new item for that slot. And since we're talking about one specific gearslot, not an entire gear, it is not certain that the player will find a suitable item in time if he is careless about that gearslot. He can pretty much level 10 or 20 levels and not obtain a suitable weapon or ring for his build if he doesn't go for it. A player who uses a Makabra on the other hand has the assurance that it will always have a suitable equipment no matter how much he levels himself. He can pretty much not care about that gearslot, like if it wasn't even there, till he achieves character level 100. No more time spent farming resources to craft an item for that slot, not spending kamas to buy a item for it, no more grinding mobs specifically to get an item for that gearslot. He will even have more kamas saved to invest on other items. It's like if you were paying Ankama to transform a gearslot of yours in a +stats aura that will get stronger as you level yourself, it can be weaker than a slot equipped with an item but you don't have to search any item anymore. This shows why both efforts are quite distinct, and because one of them can be sourced in real world money, it is liable of criticism.


But this doesn't say anything about the nature of the case. That's what I'm talking about. The amount of unbalance a player might accept is completely subjective and has nothing to say about a given feature being righteous or wrongful for the game. Some players even like unbalance. The player's perception can be completely emotional and irrational. Where reason inside game system will tell you that the least amount of unbalance the better, the players on the other hand can simply don't mind it at all, but that isn't to say it is right.


I don't remember people stating that. They're raging because the item is sourced in real world money, this simply should not happen, at all. Even if there were other means to get the Makabra through pure in-game effort, like crafting, they would still be raging because the item is still being sold on the store. We aren't complaining about accessibility. To make it tradeable only makes things worse because of the possibility to convert money to kama. It's like trying to extinguish a fire with gasoline.


You seem to not comprehend what is a principle. A principle, as the name implies, is something that is the the beginning, the first element where all the later elements will derive from, something which has nothing preceding it. The principle is the essence that creates the substance. If you deny the principle you deny the substance. If you ignore the principle you will be left only with its later derivations that without a source will have no natural meaning.

Let's just make an simple analogy here to see if it is easier to understand. Imagine that a hacker creates a bank account in Bank X. And one day he invades the mainframe of Bank X. Instead of depleting someone's account and run away with all the money, he actually takes one dollar from all Bank X's accounts and deposits this money in his own bank account at Bank X and so manages to make a small fortune.

For the general sense of proportion this isn't a problem at all. I'm sure no one became substantially poorer because of one dollar, no damages were made to the Mainframe with the invasion and Bank X still has the same amount of reserves in its domain. Actually, there are good sides of it, like showing to the bank that its security system is flawed and needs to be improved.

However, none of these elements will deny the fact that this is Stealing and Invasion, a violation of the Principle of Property. And such violation is enough to persecute the violator under the Principles of Law and penalize him in accord to the quantity of chaos he generated through stealing. The fact that people find ridiculous to persecute such case wouldn't change at all the fact that he is violating the Principle of Property and that the best to be done is to reverse such violation.

If you violate the principle of game, the game itself will lose an amount of quality. Depending on the severity of the violation the lost of quality won't be even noticed or it will be unbearable. And even if is little, it's still losing quality and the best to be done is to reverse such violation. I can't see why someone would be defending the Makabras under these circumstances.
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Hahaha, I knew you would say that! As a Student of Philosophy my approach to Psychology tends towards Humanism, while the modern academy have become more geared towards Behaviorism and Determinism, specially after the advent of Neurology and Genetics. I don't agree entirely with this shift, but this isn't the place to discuss it anyways.


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 16, 2012, 20:35:26.

No, I wasn't talking about your item comparison, I was talking about your perception of unbalance. Even if you agree those items cause unbalance inside the game, if there's something which you can define as a trade off for this unbalance or something “good” can come out of it, then you believe it will negate this unbalance or make it so minimum that is negligible. That's why I called it a Sense of Proportions [small, medium, large and so on]. It's a sense that if the unbalance is for any reason small then it is fine to you, the “good sides” will outweight the “bad sides”, that's why I also called it a Margin Calculus. I find curious that you use an economic principles to help you justify the Makabras but prefer to ignore the game principle, like if it was a matter of taste or personal opinion.


The Supply and Demand principle suggests that in a Free Market the price of a good or service will tend to Low on Average. But mind this: Tend. The Supply and Demand principle says that the price of goods or service will tend to be low, not that it will stay low. Booms and Depressions are natural cycles to any economic system, and there will be a businessman exploiting both of them. The price will not stay low one hundred percent of the time, sometimes the fluctuations of Supply and Demand will make them increase, and that's when the exploiting happens. Monopolistic prices can be used in such fluctuations to generate a rapid income of profit. Though it won't be long lived, it is enough to reduce effort from a player in acquisition of Kamas.

And I should also remind you that a trade has no grounds to occur if it violates another principle, in this case, the game principle.


I don't understand what are you saying as disadvantage here... The player is not using the the Makabra to compete with anyone and if a dangerous situations appears outside battle instance the player can quickly switch to its real weapons. The player would be using a Makabra specifically with the purpose of leveling it a little to sell it on the market. And he won't be in severe disadvantage in regular level 100 fights either. In Wakfu, skills have way more weight in the outcome of a battle than the use of weapons, where the use of weapons is purely situational, you could even call Wakfu's weapons a Stat Stick. Weapon or Ring slot is just one slot of an entire gear, and he can perfectly win a level 100 battle without equipping a weapon or ring, because the lack of optimum items in these slots alone won't severely handicap the player's damage output through skills. So yes, the player can perfectly level a Makabra easily till a certain point with level 100 experience fights and sell it on the market with increased price. And yes, through supply and demand principle there will be an increase in a leveled Makabra price, not only because there's more effort than no leveled Makabras in it, but because the item now has a specific level the competition will decrease as it is targeting different types of costumers than not leveled Makabras. If Demand is higher than Supply, the price goes up. If many people start doing this of course the price will tend to low, but is still exploitable.


I'm not talking about new content above level 100. I'm talking about new content, new tier, IN level 100. If level 100 is the level cap, which is likely, I don't believe Ankama would release the game without ¾ of its intended content, even more considering the fact that Skills themselves have a level cap of 100, when they add a new higher tier content to level 100 [like every other MMO out there does with its level cap content] and makabras lv100 update themselves for this new high tier content, its stats will change automatically to be competitive with this new content without any effort at all from the players part [since he won't need to level it at all], while regular players will have to grind for the new items that came with the new tier content. That's what I'm talking about.


You think advantage can derive only from power balance? Effort is also essential to overall balance value. I'm not arguing that a player who uses a Makabra will faceroll other players, I'm arguing that a player who levels with a Makabra will have its effort required reduced through an mechanism that can be sourced in external factors. The level delay and possible stat difference is not enough for a trade off, simply because one defalcated gearslot is not a determining factor for overall balance.


This is not something up to the players, this is not a popularity contest. If you can generate Kamas from real world money you are already violating a principle of games and thus diminishing its quality. I'll repeat, a trade has no grounds to occur if violates an essence. A trade will not be valid only because both sides are benefiting from it, Economy is way more complex than that. And not only that, but as an exploitable feature this can be easily done to generate unbalance, like using the market of cash goods to help the seller buy a very powerful gear.


You know what would solve this issue? Simply don't sell the Makabras through the boutique. Makabras are not needed for the game to be economically viable.


It's not about quantitative value but buying power. Even if it was sold for 10 kamas, if the 10 kamas represent a decent buying power inside the economy then it is exploitable. And besides you can raise the profit by selling easily leveled Makabras. And I'm sure rich and lazy players wouldn't mind spend that amount of money at all.

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Well, since you showed your background it's only fair to show mine as well. I can't say I'm a philosopher since I don't have an intellectual work of my own, I believe such thing should only happen later in the life of a student of Philosophy. But I'm an avid reader [when I said I read at least 80 books per year, I wasn't kidding] and student of Philosophy, and since Philosophy encompasses a very wide range of fields you'll see I have a decent knowledge on many other fields as well. I have no particular specialization since I need to read everything but I tend to gear more toward Classicism and despise most of the Modern Existentialism. About Psychology in particular I have read the some authors mainly from the germanic school like Freud, Carl Jung, Max Pfister, Marie Louise von Franz, Lipot Szondi, Jolande Jacobi and some works about them, and actually, I know some more underground and alternative stuff like the Third Viennese School of Psychotherapy, Paul Diel, Renné le Senne, Arthur Javnov and so on which I'm sure is not popular inside academic circles. I must confess that I don't know that much from quantitative psychology. I read some works about Social Engineering that could enter this field now and then, and I have read the Kinsey Reports and some works about it but I found Kinsey's research ultimately wrongful so I kind of lost interest in the field as a whole. I'm sure you must be more knowledgeable in psychology than I'm. Good luck in your studies =].


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 14, 2012, 20:32:04.

@PrincessBananahammock: Hey, finally! Nice to have you here, better than have to talk over an instant messenger software.

Well, your arguments aim in a high range spectrum, probably trying to address everyone's concerns, so I'll just respond the ones which address my points.

But first, there's one thing I would like to clarify here. You seem to be working through a sense of proportion rather than real values. A margin calculus. If the “unbalance” generated isn't severe, then its negligible and fine. The problem with this kind of approach is that it is completely personal and subjective. Of course you will find people who have the exact same sense of proportion, and they might even be a majority, but you will find people who have completely different standards as well, and since your argument comes from just a sense of proportion, their sense of proportion is just as valid as yours, because it all boils down to feelings, personal perception, not on universal elements.

And second, this argument falls over its own weight at the moment any fluctuation [realistic ones of course] changes the proportions. If a market fluctuation on the Euro affects Ogrines value, causing an inflation, or Ankama rising the price for ogrines for any reason they might have, and suddenly what was “acceptable” can simply change to “unacceptable”. The same would also happen if for any reason a market fluctuation changes the Kama value for Makabras, making them cost more. I would not say this argument is a solid ground to stand unless it's the only approach possible to the subject, which I'm sure it isn't.

Let's start with the points now. I should warn that as you have given yourself the freedom to speculate, I'll do the same.

Regarding their state at high levels there's two things to mind here.

One: If there's not a mechanism that prevents Makabras to gain experience efficiently when their owner is at a level much higher than the item itself, it's possible to exploit the lack of this mechanism. For example, a level 100 player can buy Makabras from the store, rapidly level them through level 100 fight and sell them on the market for kamas when it has achieved a good level. Real world currency to in-game currency conversion with little effort at proportions that can “unbalance the game enough”. If proportion matters to you.

Two: If makabras update themselves to accompany high tier level 100 content, the players who don't have the makabras will be in severe disadvantage. As soon as the new level 100 content is released and makabras update themselves from day one, the player who own a Makabra level 100 will already have an item that is competitive with the new content right from the start, while those who do not have a makabra will have to spend days grinding the new content to update their items. Even if it isn't updated from day one, the players who own a Makabra can still just wait the update to happen, since they'll be attaining competitive items with no additional effort from their previous situation.

Regarding their state at mid level.

Ankama already said that the purpose of the items is to save time. This is an advantage. Sourced in real world currency.

I'm sure you can find hundreds of examples where killing the mob which gives optimum EXP will also have the chance to drop optimum items. But the problem is, if there is just one situation where this does not happen, this argument becomes useless. There will be times where optimum progression or EXP gain will have to be halted to search for gear, and Makabras are meant to annihilate this effort to weapon or ring slot. So yes, a Makabra will save you time as it was meant to from character lv1 to 100. And the level delay or stat deficiency cannot be a trade off for this lack of effort because it still grants optimum EXP gain to the character and a regular player will not always be able to attain an optimum item even if he grinds to. The Makabra saves you time specifically because it removes a portion of grinding from the game from level 1 to 100. And the later grinding needed to get the Makabra to level 100 after the player already attained level 100 cannot be considered a trade off also because the effort to grind the Makabra at this stage might be minor than the effort needed to attain a regular item with competitive Makabra lv100 stats, and the player still has the option to simply sell his Makabra when himself achieves lv100 and get a regular item, thus making use of the reduced effort Makabras give when leveling but not necessarily coping with the grinding part [since grinding a Makabra only happens when the player is level 100].

Also, a player who owns a Makabra can save more kamas to invest on other gearslots, since he is completely relieved from the costs a weapon or ring slot might have.

Regarding accessibility.

The fact that the players can obtain a Makabra through Kamas doesn't solve anything. There is still the fact that someone can attain the items through real world currency and by making the items tradeable now you add one more issue. Now you can use the Makabras to perform a Real currency to in-game currency conversion, a issue that is severe by itself.
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My reason to despise the items is based on game principle. Diferent than a sense of proportion, it is based on universal elements. So I must warn you that any relativistic argument won't really work on my grounds.

PS: I don't remember bashing your college. I don't even know what is your college, how could I bash it? The only thing I can bash now is Forbes mag, hahaha! These guys are only good to compare people's wallet size. On economy subjects they're blind as a mole, and their other ranks have quality standards lower than listverse. Personally, I don't ever trust these “college and universities rankings”, they don't really manage to measure quality.


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 13, 2012, 04:26:32.

Yeah, you got it right, sort of.

But I get agressive with them because even though "game principles" might be an abstract concept, its not like its esoteric mysterious stuff that has not been explained. It was. Very clearly. Two times actually. And in simplified versions at many other posts. But people prefer to just keep doing Strawmans. If it had been done one or two times, ok, but consistently through 7 subsequent pages I guess is too much for me. If my memory doesn't fail me, the only person in this entire discussion that tried to address our argument was that friend of Zeitzbach, and his argument got demolished by Yechnagoth on the first try.


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 10, 2012, 02:03:56.

My god, you really didn't read my older posts if you think I was complaining based on power balance. Other people are other people, not me. And since my inclusion in this discussion my argument has been based on Yechnagoth's arguments and they never changed their grounds in this whole discussion, actually they never changed as a whole, she argued on the same grounds at other discussion a month ago at the Topic "Pay to play, really?" which I'm sure you are very aware. It is an argument based on game principles, she even copied her argument over the other topic to this one. Read again, game principles, is not based specifically on power balance, speed balance or anything else, but only on game principles (where balance as a whole is included and not only power balance). It's frustrating, really, we tell is bad because it is an advantage and you all assume that we're telling that makabras have 1337+ stats than other weapons and keep repeating this over and over and over so that we had to repeat over and over and over that this is not what we're complaining, it's like we're discussing with a badly programmed robot. At the very first answer Yechnagoth gave to Troyle she already explain that:


She uses unbalance here in the way most of you use so that it wouldn't cause much confusion, she uses the word unbalance specifically as power balance, and she already say that it's not about it. I have been with her since we begun this whole discussion and I'm still on her support, because we both agree these items are wrong on game principles, and that goes back to the "Pay to Play. Really?" topic a month ago. You didn't really understand our reasons to say we've changed them.

And about your other post (above the one I quoted), not only you took my quote out of context, since I was talking about mechanics, not prospects, but it falls under the same previous mistakes, we never really complained about power balance. It does not matter that the makabras don't have OP stats, or it won't make you OP, Ankama already said it won't many times, and we never really complained about it and we have pointed that countless of times, going back to page 5 where Troyle pointed this out and Yechnagoth argued that is not about it. But I'm sure you won't understand this again, because you can't understand game principles.

And by the way, I called you kid because you were being naive, like a kid, in believing that I'm quitting just because of the Makabras Issue, or that I didn't have passion or experience in this game.


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 09, 2012, 23:56:08.

Hahaha, seriously people, this is getting ridiculous.

Unless Ankama has really lost all its shame and is going straight for P2W, which I find difficult, I'm pretty sure you don't have to pay any extra money to have access to spells. And no, spells have a very different dynamic than Makabras, you cannot ignore a spell branch or a specific spell and believe it will level with you as you gain levels yourself, you cannot ignore a spell in the same way you can ignore a gearslot where the Makabra is equipped. You have to use the spells in battle, regard their levels and form a strategy with them, because the more you use a specific group of spells, more powerful this group becomes and in the same time becomes harder to level another group later, and again, you have to constantly use them in battle to make them level up, because it is required to level them up.

Makabras on the other hand have very few limitations: You need to have it equipped to gain experience, if there is more than one equipped the experience will split, so its better to just equip one. That's it.

Even if spells required the same amount of effort to level as a Makabra, it wouldn't really point anything, it would be comparing oranges and apples. Do you think our complaints is based on just the amount of effort? Read. We're complaining because someone can pay real world currency to have reduced effort, and obviously when you compare effort to know which was reduced you need to compare it to its regular mode, not with something else. There is effort in leveling a Makabra? Probably. It's equal or higher effort compared to search your own gear constantly till level 100? No. There you go, apples and apples. And again, the level delay is not a trade off.


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 09, 2012, 23:04:17.

Ankama already proved they won't care for our concerns and I said I'm out of this game, but if you want to continue to discuss I don't mind, I will stand for what I believe.



Did you even read our posts? When I said these weapons are going to make you win or stronger? We are saying these weapons reduce the effort from the player while leveling, he doesn't need to care about his weapon anymore, he equips it and it will level with him as he levels himself, no time grinding mobs that don't give crap EXP for a weapon, no more time farming resources for hours to make your own weapon, no more need to spend kamas in weapons at the market, he can pretty much NOT CARE about his weapon/ring gearslot anymore [since there is nothing he can do to boost the level delay anyways]. And you know why this happens? Because someone paid real world currency for it. And for us, in gaming principles, that is just wrong. And no, the level delay is not enough for a trade off.


Hahaha, do you think we are quitting the game just because of this, kid? You're really naive.

I have been accompanying this game since its inception, and from there I was very excited for it. I was loving every new idea, every new concept, I was filled with joy when Wakfu appeared at the MMO Report with Casei Schreiner himself interviewing Ankama at E3, it was the proof that Wakfu was not meant to be just another Dofus, another kids game with closed community, it was meant to do something at the leading edge of the industry, up to the big names. For me this game was the chance for Ankama to fix everything they have done wrong with Dofus, everything they have done with a Strategy Turn Based MMORPG and make it better. But in the long run, the only thing they accomplished is proving they're not a trustworthy company. So many great features, ideas and suggestions scrapped and substituted by crap, so many bad decisions, one after another. Almost every feature the game has now is a downplay of what it could be if they had stick with their old concepts and many are a downplay of what it already was on closed and open beta. The election system is still flawed, the political system is still minimum, the eco system has become a farm system. And these features are not in this state for the lack of time, ideas, feedback or warning, they had 4 damn years to invest in the game and have been only revamping and scrapping ideas instead of completing them, for crying out loud they scrapped a recycling system for a game that claims to be environmentally conscious. It has been four years of bad decisions and deceptions, and if you think this game has great features now, you don't really know what was expected from this game. The Makabras are just the last straw. The drop that made the bowl overflow. You do not have the right to say I didn't love or experienced this game when you don't even understand my reasons.


Do you think we had not considered this too? That we're just of a bunch butthurt whiners? You do not even try to understand our reasons and come to point an argument we had already refuted 7 pages behind? Just go and read our reasons and then come back to talk about it.


As I said, Wakfu was a chance to redo everything they have done wrong on Dofus, and yes, Ogrines system in Dofus IS a bad feature. Or do you really think this is about popularity? Even if it was, I don't see why do you think Dofus is a popular game...


Seriously, if you think we're complaining about balance then you really don't understand our reasons. And yes, we already adressed why money cannot be analogous to in-game effort 6 pages behind, if you had read our concerns.

And by the way, I need to remember you that leveling makabras requires no aditional effort. You equip it and just play the game like if it wasn't even there, because you don't have to do nothing with it despite leveling your own character with it equiped, and you will level your chracter regardless if you have a makabra or not. And no, I'm not talking about end game, I'm talking about the middle, the leveling, the path till character level 100.

Seriously people, want to discuss with me? Then understand my reasons first, otherwise you'll be just repeating what was already refuted.


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 08, 2012, 18:41:45.

Well, I don't care for this anymore, they already proved they don't give a crap to our reasons, so I'm out of this game, but anyways, here is the transcription for the part where they "address" the Makabra Issue:


Anyways, what they're telling us is basically this: Makabras are meant to save time, but they don't save time, they just save time.

But seriously, they actually have the balls to think we are stupid enough to don't realize that by saving time "not searching for this one weapon you want" you're actually, you know, saving time. {sarcasm on} Yeah, I mean, its not like people stop their optimum EXP gain to farm for a weapon. It's not like people have to farm old resources that don't give any profession EXP {I'm not even going to point out that profession level is not the same as character level} to gather material for a weapon, it's not like people bust their ass getting kamas to buy one specific weapon.{sarcasm off}

Our main complaint here was that it is an advantage sourced in money, and by advantage we mean that require less effort from the player because of his money. Yes, not having to search for the right weapon while you level is less effort, you won't have to grind dungeon X a billion of times because Weapon Y didn't drop in any of the time you did the damn thing, you won't have to keep killing one thousand of mobs that don't give optimum EXP because the darn thing is not dropping, you won't have to constantly search the auction house for better weapon and spent your sweaty kamas on it, because you already spent your money on the Makabra anyways. They actually think that our complaint is based on power balance or speed, not on effort.

Curiously, they didn't even touch our other complaint, that the Makabra can be used to make real world currency to in-game currency conversion, because they already support this crap on Dofus with ogrines.

Probably, the next thing they gonna tell us is something like this: "We don't think these advantages unbalance the game. So, we don't care." and that's it.


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 07, 2012, 23:33:06.

Yeah, I guess this is the answer that they don't really give a shit to our concerns. Same thing they did to us when they announced ogrines in Dofus... Ankama needs to get a prize for worst costumer service.

Zeitzbach and his "intellect" friends can have more fun now, good luck with the game, I'm out as well.


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 07, 2012, 15:00:53.

Well, 12 pages with hundreds of opinions and all, it is understandable that you forget one thing or another about some of our positions, but nice job, this is really praiseful, very few people do it.

First, it is not about popularity. If some feature is popular on game X or not does not matter to the question per se. (And in this case in particular, even if we cared about popularity we would have to scan EVE online economy to know exactly what makes it popular, and if its the maximum level a player run economy can achieve, if it cannot get better). If Eve has same features or not does nothing to prove these features to be balanced.

And also, I have to to say that believing there wasn't uproar from the player base is just misgiving, should I remember you about the huge forum and in-game protests that were made when, in Incarna expansion, the information about a online store was released? That was the hell of a fiasco for the game. I wasn't even playing Eve, still laughing at the thousand memes that were made about the case (curiously, there is a meme for the boutique that was made from Incarna Store downfall meme).

And the equipment in question is already tradeable. Also, the same plex system exists in another Ankama game called Dofus, it is the ogrines system (actually, bigger than the plex system, since with ogrines you can buy not only subscription time, but other Ankama's services as well, like Server Transfer, Name Change and so on), and anyone who played Dofus for a considerable time knows that the ogrine system is just bad for the game.

I don't think EVE proves anything about cash shops, only that they can be popular.


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 06, 2012, 22:04:25.

Do you really think that Dofus is a good example of a balanced game?

And still doesn't invalidate the point that as good useful items Makabras can have their price increased, or are you saying that Makabras suck?

And you're still ignoring the other argument.


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 06, 2012, 00:43:11.

So, it's ok to have an armed bomb in your bedroom, as long as it didn't explode yet?

Your argument falls over its own weight just at the moment a market fluctuation of prices makes its value go way up. Your argument relies on the false assumption that it "will simply never happen".

This is not about value, is not about how much the item costs or how much power they give compared to regular weapons, but the fact that there is real world money involved with items that have a practical use.

And you're ignoring the other argument.


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 05, 2012, 19:25:38.

This
"selling items acquired with real world currency is equal to acquire in-game currency through real world currency as a source, it DOES violates the essence of gaming."

and this
"they are having this advantage (less effort required) because they paid extra real world money for it."

Sorry for the delay to respond, had to go to work.


And that's why I try to write detailed posts, so confusion can be avoided. Popularity does not make something right, however, popularity, TILL a certain point is required for a game to be prosperous. When I was talking about the hardcore community I was trying to imply that Ankama can achieve profit without relying to the Cash systems, and I say this because some people argue that cash shops are necessary to keep the company alive, and that is just false. You can perfectly have a game with no Cash Shops, with only vanity items on the store and subs and still have a very stable, active game.


I don't know if I could define myself as a hardcore gamer, it depends what the definition is, if its only about Purism than, yeah, I'm, but on performancing grounds I don't really think I could enter in the definition.

I'm not saying Ankama could be more prosperous if they shifted to hardcore gaming, I don't think that would work out. If you're talking about commercial success (profit margin) than cash shops is the way to go. What I was saying is that it is possible to fund the game and later developments of it without Cash Shop because of the hardcore community, not that this model would maximize profit.


This type of discussion is very hard indeed, but that's not to say there isn't a right answer. Something doesn't need to be defined as vital to be valid for the definition of right and wrong, if that was so, then you could steal anything from anyone as long as it does not kill the victim with the act of stealing. There are some principles involved, and they don't depend upon interpretation, they're logical conclusions, that's why there can be a definition of right and wrong.

I do know that ogrines have a practical use, they can be spent on a lot of things. And I don't think there's something wrong with it. But being able to trade these Ogrines with in-game currency is what is wrong, because is something that is sourced on real world currency. It's not just because a transaction between two people is beneficial for both that will make it valid and righteous, if these transactions violates some principles then it has no grounds to occur. I for example cannot exchange money to buy sexual services from an unwilling woman (me paying someone to force a woman to have sexual intercourse with me), that is not a valid transaction because violates the principle o Body Domain. It's not simply a problem of interpretation, if some principle is violated then the transaction hasn't really a stable ground to occur, and that goes for these types of transactions (real world currency --> In-game Currency) as well.

Thank you for being so comprehensive, it is really appreciated.


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 05, 2012, 09:34:06.