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Ankama stop nerfing us
Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2012-01-22
posté February 06, 2014, 12:58:42 | #21

Quote (Sabi @ 05 February 2014 20:55) *
Thank you for the feedback guys, even if there is a lot of unhappiness, I will definitely also use this image for my report to illustrate your reactions.

I also agree that there is still a need to get the information earlier when it comes to changes on classes or big features.

As you have noticed already, we were also not able to provide you with a letter to the community, as we had first hoped to be able to post one every month, unfortunately all the necessary conditions didn't get together as planned.

We still do not have a date to share on this letter and the planning for the whole year, as we prefer to announce a date when we are certain of it, and not when we risk to change it, which would only bring frustration and disappointment.


Regarding the recent Rogue change shared in the February changelog, please make sure to check out this post as well: Here and share your opinion on that thread, so that we can keep all the February update feedback in that thread as much as possible.
Is it possible to report a Mod for posting off-topic information?

Don't pull attention away from the fact that you guys are bitch slapping Rogues in the few seconds before the bell rings at the end of the quarter. At the very least you could have given us time to mull this over as opposed to throwing it on us barely a week in advance. If I remember correctly, you yourself, Sabi, said that there was a small chance this "minor tweak" would make it into the Feb. 11th patch.

Nevertheless, there's no point in arguing this. Could you at least ensure that Rogues will be receiving a restat along with the Fecas? I'd say this is significant enough for a full overhaul of my Rogue. I mean, this patch as a whole is nearly enough to warrant a restat of all of my classes, but I'll settle for just my Rogue.

Good-bye, Fire Rogues.


Narcissistic Larva * Member Since 2012-06-07
posté February 06, 2014, 13:01:40 | #22
I have never been a fan of fire and earth rogues, I admit I was waiting for a nerf to come, and I was happy when i get to know they were gonna be nerfed.

I feel the nerf on piercing shot is ok and (yes) the nerf on firewall may look a bit too much, but if you really think about it will become a balanced class that requires tactical skills on bombs positioning.
Face the fact that fire rogues used to put a goddamn over powered firewall randomly on the map and stupid mobs walked on it to death.

The lesson people seem never learn about video games is "if it's op it's gonna be nerfed" deal with it.


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2013-10-21
posté February 06, 2014, 17:41:54 | #23

Quote (Soundtrack8 @ 06 February 2014 10:51) *

Quote
First Turn: Firewall change... You spend 10 ap to make a firewall that gives only 132 base damage total (assuming enemy takes 3 steps.)
What level rogue are you basing this off (it seems like you tripled the new bomb explosion damage to calculate firewall damage)

You also have to remember, that in 1 turn they can get an aoe of 21 cells set up. I think 3 procs per enemy is reasonable, maybe procs from barbed wire shouldn't count? - but 3 per turn (Im still confused about the wording choice) is very harsh.
I'm basing it off of lvl 100 rogue.

Blinding Bomb deals 50 damage or 75 damage on crits
Burning Bomb deals 60 damage or 90 damage on crits
MegaBomb deals 97 damage or 145 damage on crits

If 3 Blinding Bombs, 1 Burning Bomb and 1 Megabomb (which is the best likely scenario for a turn 2 situation. You will deal anywhere between 307 (if no bomb crits) to 460 (If every bomb crits) base damage if every bomb hits the target. I go on to explain the damage if 4 bombs hit, 3 bombs hit, 2 bombs hit, 1 bomb hits - this damage is also shown through if no bombs crit or if evey bomb crits.


So basically 132 damage assumes the enemy walked 3 steps on fire wall (each step deals 44). So assuming all 5 bombs crit, you'll accumulate 592 base damage over the course of two turns. Which averages to 292 base damage a turn. If you consider the luck needed to crit 5 times, for enemy to take 3 steps inside, and for all 5 bombs to go off... Isn't this nerf a bit too much? There are many classes that can deal higher than 292 base damage at lvl 100 if they crit each of their spells as well. These classes can do this consistently. Fire rogue on the other hand has a relatively high chance of no bomb hitting an enemy or even one. 20 ap for only hitting the enemy once is kind of pathetic in terms of damage.

.


Wilder than Wild Dragoturkey * Member Since 2012-03-12
posté February 07, 2014, 05:41:16 | #24

Quote (ZioWilli @ 06 February 2014 13:01) *
I have never been a fan of fire and earth rogues, I admit I was waiting for a nerf to come, and I was happy when i get to know they were gonna be nerfed.

I feel the nerf on piercing shot is ok and (yes) the nerf on firewall may look a bit too much, but if you really think about it will become a balanced class that requires tactical skills on bombs positioning.
Face the fact that fire rogues used to put a goddamn over powered firewall randomly on the map and stupid mobs walked on it to death.

The lesson people seem never learn about video games is "if it's op it's gonna be nerfed" deal with it.

God forbid they make the AI more intelligent!


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-03-02
posté February 07, 2014, 06:19:56 | #25

Quote
There are many classes that can deal higher than 292 base damage at lvl 100 if they crit each of their spells as well. These classes can do this consistently
but how many classes can do this in the aoe of a fire rogue. (not directed at the value stated, just the crazy high firewall damage) Maybe something like an earth cra's piercing arrow can get the same aoe / hit similar amounts of enemies, but I wouldn't say the damage is equal.

Genuine question - how many rogues multielement between fire / earth and fire / air?
I feel like the nerf is being used to promote these builds

Im still confused by your firewall damage calculation. But then again I'm not really sure on how the walls dmg is calculated - I thought it was just half the rogues level? So at lvl 100 wouldn't it would deal 150 just from the wall against x many enemies if they proc it all 3 times?

Edit: I somewhat agree with toasty. The nerf should be introduced next update, or atleast a few weeks from now. Give people a chance to prepare, get new sets etc. I hate how often they change something literally a day before an update (change something many people dont like / didn't ask for / want to be redone) and give literally no time for feedback.


This post has been edited by Soundtrack8 - February 07, 2014, 06:45:23.
Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2013-10-21
posté February 07, 2014, 07:53:27 | #26

Quote (Soundtrack8 @ 07 February 2014 06:19) *

Quote
There are many classes that can deal higher than 292 base damage at lvl 100 if they crit each of their spells as well. These classes can do this consistently
but how many classes can do this in the aoe of a fire rogue. (not directed at the value stated, just the crazy high firewall damage) Maybe something like an earth cra's piercing arrow can get the same aoe / hit similar amounts of enemies, but I wouldn't say the damage is equal.

Genuine question - how many rogues multielement between fire / earth and fire / air?
I feel like the nerf is being used to promote these builds

Im still confused by your firewall damage calculation. But then again I'm not really sure on how the walls dmg is calculated - I thought it was just half the rogues level? So at lvl 100 wouldn't it would deal 150 just from the wall against x many enemies if they proc it all 3 times?

Edit: I somewhat agree with toasty. The nerf should be introduced next update, or atleast a few weeks from now. Give people a chance to prepare, get new sets etc. I hate how often they change something literally a day before an update (change something many people dont like / didn't ask for / want to be redone) and give literally no time for feedback.

Wall of Flame: Will increase to 3 triggers per turn and per target. Damage will decrease from 54 to 44 (level 100) and 104 to 84 (level 200).


This description tells me that in the AoE you can deal total via firewall is 132 damage per target if they take 3 steps in firewall.

Foggernauts Steampalm can deal 138 - 206 damage depending on crits
Osa's Weakened Command can deal 130 - 194 damage depending on crits
Cra's Piercing Arrow can deal 122 - 186 damage depending on crits (quite a bit more if you include beacon)

So basically a fire rogue can deal similar damage, but only on the low end of the scale. Their AoE has no crit damage increase - so its baseline will be max 132 per target. The other classes with flexible AoEs can deal quite a bit more damage for sure.

(I do not know if they worked out double firewalls. Before you could set up a firewall behind a firewall if you had 6 bombs. The overlapping areas dealt double the damage. Depending on if this would trigger, the calculations would have to change)

There are many fire/earth builds not as many fire/air from what I know.




Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-03-02
posté February 07, 2014, 08:17:28 | #27
Ah!
I took that as to mean the bombs explosion damage was reduced haha

I guess in one turn the firewall wont do as much damage when compared to other classes. But after it is set up it will last for a few more turns before finally exploding. So over a period of time that 9ap can equate to almost 400 damage against one mob (whether it stays in the firewall or not makes this damage unreliable, but I believe at lvl 100 the firewall would get atleast 5 procs against 1 enemy across the 3 turns).
In the other two turns the rogue can do a couple of piercing shots, or increase the size of the wall. So lets say, over the 3 turns 4 enemies get proc'd 5 times by the firewall (lets assume they have unlimited hp and wont be taken down by allies ;D and with almost guaranteed highest ini of all team mates setting up a wall to be proc'ed this many times shouldn't be an issue) Thats 220 damage (or 880 against all 4 mobs, pretty good for one turns worth of setting up. Of course damage may and probably would vary). Assuming this rogue has 10ap for both setting up bombs and piercing shots then you can spend the next two turns with another 260 damage with no crits. (other factors might come into play, for example they may come in cc with you and you have to pushthem back. So thats -2ap for potentially 44 damage from fire wall + 65 damage from piercing shot + 96 (3remaning ap + 5mp) damage from pulsar) Ill stick with 5 procs and 2 turns worth of piercing with no pulsar for this though

Total base damage over 3 turns against a single mob = 220 from 5 firewall procs (not even the cap from 2 turns) + 260 from 2 turns worth of piercing, not including possible increases from surprise shots, crits or pulsar.

=480

or 160 base damage.
I think this will make the class somewhat more balanced. Only thing I see as an issue is going multi element at lvl 100, the -res from piercing shot helps to some degree, but ofc the base damage of piercing isn't as high as it would be if it didn't have it.


This post has been edited by Soundtrack8 - February 07, 2014, 08:33:03.
Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2008-01-09
posté February 07, 2014, 09:05:07 | #28
i agree with earth nerf, but fire? I mean yes, the dmg from firewall is huge but it's also very hard to put sometimes, especially in the group. It is also the only source of dmg for fire rogue since their direct dmg is non existent. Either remove the 3x limit or give fire rogue some good direct dmg spell, otherwise noone will play it anymore, I dont see many fire rogues now anyway...


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-03-02
posté February 07, 2014, 09:11:19 | #29

Quote (Rokugatsu @ 07 February 2014 09:05) *
or give fire rogue some good direct dmg spell, otherwise noone will play it anymore,
Fecas are pretty much the opposite of fire rogues. Better base spells but much worse glyphs. You cant give rogues the best of both.


Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2006-03-20
posté February 07, 2014, 12:43:40 | #30

Quote (Soundtrack8 @ 07 February 2014 09:11) *

Quote (Rokugatsu @ 07 February 2014 09:05) *
or give fire rogue some good direct dmg spell, otherwise noone will play it anymore,
Fecas are pretty much the opposite of fire rogues. Better base spells but much worse glyphs. You cant give rogues the best of both.

Fire Rogues will have crappy direct damage spells and a horrible Firewall.. That being said bomb damage will still be okay, however every other aspect of the Fire branch will suck :c.


This post has been edited by Zadistforlife - February 07, 2014, 12:44:59.
Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-03-02
posté February 07, 2014, 12:54:37 | #31

Quote (Zadistforlife @ 07 February 2014 12:43) *

Quote (Soundtrack8 @ 07 February 2014 09:11) *

Quote (Rokugatsu @ 07 February 2014 09:05) *
or give fire rogue some good direct dmg spell, otherwise noone will play it anymore,
Fecas are pretty much the opposite of fire rogues. Better base spells but much worse glyphs. You cant give rogues the best of both.

Fire Rogues will have crappy direct damage spells and a horrible Firewall.. That being said bomb damage will still be okay, however every other aspect of the Fire branch will suck :c.
Firewall is still 100x better than the feca glyphs :l


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2008-01-09
posté February 07, 2014, 13:59:03 | #32

Quote (Soundtrack8 @ 07 February 2014 09:11) *

Quote (Rokugatsu @ 07 February 2014 09:05) *
or give fire rogue some good direct dmg spell, otherwise noone will play it anymore,
Fecas are pretty much the opposite of fire rogues. Better base spells but much worse glyphs. You cant give rogues the best of both.
True.
Give us the option to throw bombs at each other to explode back then, or something. What's the point of fire rogue now if they took the only good thing about them?


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2013-03-30
posté February 07, 2014, 17:13:30 | #33
Bit of a sidenote: Anyone remember what the Rogues was like before this?
**When all 3 elements had bombs! :3



______________

Personally, I think the firewall should do MOAR dmg.. the more tiles you walk on.
**Rewarding players for keeping mobs on the wall.

Could even start the wall at 40% dmg and go up from there... perhaps having the max at 200%.

I would also turn on "friendly bombs". So rogues can build walls off each others bombs. **Note: if players try to create multiple walls (stacking them on top each other) and a mob walks on a "new" wall.. the debuff would reset.

To add another tactical vantage point, the debuff could be called "catching fire".. and will remain with the mob for an extra turn or two after they stop taking dmg from the wall. So IF you hit them with a melee range attack, you receive dmg (think fire sac).

Furthermore, if mobs suffering from the debuff are hit with any other element other than fire.. the debuff will reset. (earth puts out the fire, air blows it off, water washes it away).

#2cents


This post has been edited by ShadowFacts - February 07, 2014, 17:14:40.
Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2012-02-11
posté February 09, 2014, 00:03:02 | #34

Quote (ShadowFacts @ 07 February 2014 17:13) *
Personally, I think the firewall should do MOAR dmg.. the more tiles you walk on.
**Rewarding players for keeping mobs on the wall.

Could even start the wall at 40% dmg and go up from there... perhaps having the max at 200%.

To add another tactical vantage point, the debuff could be called "catching fire".. and will remain with the mob for an extra turn or two after they stop taking dmg from the wall. So IF you hit them with a melee range attack, you receive dmg (think fire sac).

Furthermore, if mobs suffering from the debuff are hit with any other element other than fire.. the debuff will reset. (earth puts out the fire, air blows it off, water washes it away).

This sounds like how bombs in Dofus become larger and gain a damage bonus the longer they stay in play. There would still be the problem of mob AI walking through the glyph causing a lot of damage by taking advantage of how stupid many mobs are.

That debuff effect would discourage hybrid builds. What about giving air spells the ability to debuff enemy resistances to the bomb detonations and earth spells debuffing resistance to the glyph? The debuffs could also apply for bomb glyphs and detonations from ally Rogues, or to take it several steps further making air spells debuff resistance against all damage received from summons (bomb detonations, Cra beacons, Osamodas summons, Sadida summons, etc.) and earth spells debuff resistance against all glyphs (Feca glyphs, bomb glyphs, Sram traps if they inflict damage after the revamp, etc.).


Quote
I would also turn on "friendly bombs". So rogues can build walls off each others bombs. **Note: if players try to create multiple walls (stacking them on top each other) and a mob walks on a "new" wall.. the debuff would reset.

Boombots could also manage bombs of ally bombs so air and earth Rogues can use their Boombots to help fire Rogues in the same party.

Stacking bombs on the same space would be weird. Would we be able to create bombs on spaces where bombs already are? What happens if someone uses Magnetic Claw on that space, would they be able to pick up like ten bombs at once?


Ugly Gobball * Member Since 2013-02-21
posté February 11, 2014, 10:31:24 | #35
I think they are trying to make a class stand alone, and not promote using a group of mostly 1 class.
@ Kakenshu, this would further promote having 2+ rogues in a group.

I am upset about the Limit to firewall proxies. But i think the damage nerf was understandable.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2013-09-04
posté February 11, 2014, 12:25:52 | #36
nerfs made me quit rogue, it's hard for me to get gears and just by doing this they crippled me alot


Narcissistic Larva * Member Since 2012-09-05
posté February 12, 2014, 01:56:49 | #37
Thanks for the patch of doom Ankama!!!(--)p as usual make a branch even more difficult to play every time if something works they nerf it down to the bone serious go stick with anime and stop reducing
characters who where already nerfed.

Why dont you remove the wall completely while your added and olso remove the AP gain from the bombs too >:c i wouldint be suprised if the wind sword gets a tinker too sooner or later.


This post has been edited by LoneWolf700 - February 12, 2014, 13:43:19.
Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2012-11-01
posté February 12, 2014, 03:03:52 | #38
Earth Rogue is still solid.

Fire wall over nerfed. It's terrible now. The AP to make the wall isn't even worth it.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2013-04-09
posté February 12, 2014, 05:44:47 | #39
I said about the xelor revamp that they over-nerfed the summons...and they did, charges suck, well same can be said about bombs now,. Thing is reducing the base damage would of been effective in both cases as both were OP the way they previously were. However instead they over did things....again...For once please listen to the community and dont change stuff last second with NO notice and then ppl refuse to use the stuff becasue instead of making them LESS effective you made them almost unusable becasue things were nerfed way too much. Most of us would be content with the miiddle ground, and many of us are reasonable when we know a class has some OP spells. In the end its about making the classes more balanced and not having 1 class be very OP compared to the rest. So sometiems we know eventually things are going to get nerfed. But all the same...please dont nerf things so extrememly the middle ground we can deal with but, this was once again too far in the opposite direction.


Narcissistic Larva * Member Since 2012-09-05
posté March 01, 2014, 22:34:38 | #40

Quote (ZioWilli @ 06 February 2014 13:01) *
I have never been a fan of fire and earth rogues, I admit I was waiting for a nerf to come, and I was happy when i get to know they were gonna be nerfed.

I feel the nerf on piercing shot is ok and (yes) the nerf on firewall may look a bit too much, but if you really think about it will become a balanced class that requires tactical skills on bombs positioning.
Face the fact that fire rogues used to put a goddamn over powered firewall randomly on the map and stupid mobs walked on it to death.

The lesson people seem never learn about video games is "if it's op it's gonna be nerfed" deal with it.


AI or nerfs in this game seems not the only problem.

But its melee twat odjobs like you who shout OP! and only use nobrainer classes who always get spared well next time your fav classes get an unfair treatment dont come wine like a bitch we tell you

"DEAL WITH IT"