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stop requesting nerf for the sake of PVP Nerf should only happen when a class is stronger in every field of battle. Meaning it can kill single enemies, multiple ones and be supportive. Strong in PVP and PVE.

A class that makes yours uneffective to the point you would switch yours to that one.
Air cra was one of those but they are fixed now.

but now people complain "Omg Xelor's water tree is also strong! I cant do anything in PVP" and "Iops need to be stronger! They aren't strong enough on PVP." "My cra is broken now! Imma quit! Q.Q;"

There should be one last nerf which is the eni's healing tree. It simply does as much dmg as someone who doesnt have the capacity to heal making it a supportive + high dmg charecter, especially with a pimp weapon.

Guys, this is not a regular MMO. PVP cannot be balanced unless there is 6 vs 6 and even then it depends on several circumstances.

This isn't like ragnarok where you can prepare your class for hunting monsters or hunting demi-humans. (and even then, remove the pvp clothes and you could fight monsters, your charecters had equal strenght on pvp and pve.) but that's not the point of this game, this is a group game, where you play a role where on ragnarok the emphasis was individual and straight foward.

This game is like final fantasy tactics. You didn't complain your geomage didn't do as much dmg as your samurai because he was a debuffer. You didn't complain a black mage did more dmg than your white mage because one was a dmg dealer and the other was a a healer.

Same thing here. No Iops dont need a boost, you are crowd control. No xelors dont need a nerf they are the debuffers, that's their point. No sacs dont need a boost you are a tank or a rescuer.

well I think Ankama listen to fr people voice i think....

But there was no PVP in FF Tactics. This is MMO with PvP, so everyone should have a chance in PvP, not just dmg dealers.

Well I think, pvp is the best thing to balance mmorpg around. PvE is boring, schematic, you can find bilion ways to abuse monsters AI.
Btw, if you think Cras are "fixed" now, we'll see what will you say when your Xelor gets as huge nerfbat as Cra did.

They will continue to buff and nerf until each role will finally do as they were designed and not simply overshadow every other characters out there.

Also, at this pace, PVP will be balanced in a year or so since post 100 is all about getting tankier and tankier (No more new passive to boost damage, spells capped and stuffs).

However, if they decide to start reducing damage (To make PVE more challenging again. There's a reason why they have to start having this "More members in party = stronger monsters" buff) while altering stuffs for PVP, we can probably expect PVP to finally becomes playable before lv 120 cap is out.

Nyeheh~

What pvp?


Easiest way to make everything work is for the game to change player stats + skills while in pvp mode.
It's really hard to balance everything the way they are trying now.


This post has been edited by NerdFiction - May 07, 2012, 23:34:49.

Iops are close range damage dealers, not crowd control. Where did you even get that idea? The book you get at the start outright states this.

Fire Xelors are doing ridiculous amounts of damage. Water Xelors are debuffing so well that they can lock someone out of a fight completely.

Tanking is the earth Sacrier's role. Fire is for damage and air is for damage and positioning.

Well abit broken at moment for Xelor I think.......

Say what now? The most important thing for a turn based, tactical MMO is to have a balanced PvP.

PvE balancing is not such a big problem and can be relatively easily done (that is a bit of an understatement, but not the point of my argument). PvP balance is by no means easy, but has to be one of the main focusses of the devs. As someone else mentioned here PvE is so damn dull after a while that it cannot provide the slightest challenge anymore.

PVP however is not even close to getting balanced. It is a 1-2 turn Initiative battle where classes with "you skip a turn" spells have a gigantic advantage. You surely don't want to tell me that is all Ankama can do for balancing in PvP, do you?

In Beta HP were an overpowered choice for all classes and I understand why Ankama felt the need to fix that. However the high HP battles showed a glimpse of what PvP could be in this game, since you had a lot of turns to plan ahead with and figure out proper strategies etc. So we need the HP and damage values to get closer to what we once had again. Note that I am not saying that a simple overall hp buff or damage nerf suffices. The matter at hand is more complicated than this.

A second thing I think is a wrong assumption is that many players try to categorize an entire character class: Enus are for loot, neither can they be a damage dealer nor can they ever be a competitive PvP class. Imo we have different elements on each class as well as 10 special skills. With proper balancing and design it should be easily possible to let players decide wether to go for extreme specialities a class is providing, wether to be a group supporter, a PvP machine or whatever they want to be.

Sure not every class should have everything, but at least every class should provide different choices leading to different extremes catering the individual needs of different players.

Last the OP doesn't seem to have a deep insight into what certain classes could or can do. Like the old fire Xelor (and tbh it hasn't seen much of a nerf yet, let us wait for the may 9th update) who can basically eliminate the world bosses on his own while the rest of the party is there as a meat bag. An interesting thing I observed btw is that some of the more notorious fire Xelors (like Guild Laws and I think Hyu as well) seem to be respeccing into water. Probably in the expectation of the incoming nerf and with he knowledge of how strong water can be.


Seems to be the best solution to me as well.

yep. the only fair way to balance PvP is to make the skills used in PvP themeselves be fixed (when used inside PvP)

unfortunately this means tewaking/overhauling the game to give ach skill/spell a PvE and a PvP version of itself.
however, there are only 5x3 skills per class, so its not quite as bad as it sounds. unlike other games like warcraft (which refuses to do it, daft buggers) and guildwars (which did it, and is now enjoying the best and most easiest balancing it ever had lol) where there were many many skills per class.

see, after having years of PvP nerfing my characters (who never PvP only PvE) in GW i and many others kept telling them to fix the skills themselves that way. it took them 5-6 years but they finaly realised it was viable and did it.
once you do that, you can balance the PvP version of every classes skills to your hearts content.
while letting everyone thats not PvPing have their fun (even though you lot think its boaring and crap, we who dont touch PvP think PvE is fun)

Because ive seen how good they are in pve dealing with multiple monsters but their dificulty on 1 vs 1 pvp.

I don't think every char should have a shot at PVP and no PVP is not the main part of an MMO some mmos dont have PVP at all.

What they should do is properly fix each element. Healing Means Healing! Dmg means Dmg. not "This element does sorta the same thing as the other elements just slight better or worst with a different tactic."

So that players can categorise their charecter. "I want to be support, I will focus on healing! " "I want to kill players~/ monsters" "I want to do both but at an balance."

That's what you should be Q.Q ing for, balance and straight fowardness between each tree rather than crying about boosts / nerfs and which class is stronger at pvp.

Judging by the name of the topic, which is "stop requesting nerf for sake of PVP", you just divided by 0. Let me guess, are you playing as water xelor? because that would explained alot. Also, pvp hardly can be balanced on 1vs1 fights or group pvp, especially in turn-based mmo. And dont forget about initiative and luck, not to mention personal knowledge about your or your foe class performance.

Well there's your problem, buddy. If not every class has a chance at PvP it will be just like the situation with the Air Cras all over again. If you're not playing one of those classes, enjoy living in fear that one of your PvP capable overlords will aggro you and destroy you, and maybe even your entire party.

Builds are a different matter of course. But if you're telling me that because I rolled a certain class or element that I should be entirely ineffective in PvP... No, sorry, that's bullshit and you should feel bad for even thinking that. It seems quite apparent that your entire reason for creating this post is that you don't want your preferred class or build nerfed because it's too good.

PvP should be balanced - Around groups of a minimum of 3vs3.

Trying to balance anything below that is laughably stupid. I recall GC from Blizzard saying something along the lines of "Show me any RPG that try to balance PvP in 1vs1, and I'll show you a game that will fail."

It simply isn't possible, but for the sake of arguement, let's say it is.

Do you know Chess? That's a 1 on 1 game that is balanced. Why? Because everything you have it the exact same thing. That's the only feasible way of balancing in 1vs1. So Iops that claim that they are useless in PvP, haven't tried a proper group battle.

I think that's what the OP tried to say. We need to balance the game mostly around Group PvE - If that is balanced, PvP is almost always balanced as well.

lol even chess is not balanced game - white ones move first

But they can't 1-shot black king in the first turn ;p

meh Krowakot - i know u hate xelors as much as you can and looks like you hope that if you will shout "nerf xelor" in every corner they will be removed from the game. let me assure you - they wont

water xelor - dont you know its not too good class for pve? mostly useless in dungs compared to other classes. so control pvp class is omg good in pvp? and must be nerfed for that? or omg superkiller pve iop is not that good in pvp? and must be buffed? oh yeah...

and what i wanted to add about chess is not about oneshotting (erm btw all figures oneshot each other lol even a pawn can oneshot a queen). i mean even in a game where both players have exactly the same figures there s no balance because one side get first turn.

You don't know all that much about Chess, do you Supic? Going first isn't always an advantage. Some of the people I commonly play chess with prefer that the other part starts. Chess is based on thinking ahead - How do you do that when you have no idea what your opponent is going to do? Starting first isn't an advantage. On the other hand, it allows you to be 1 physical step ahead of your opponent.

So it's really all about preference. Most decent players will tell you that who starts in chess doesn't matter. If you are a lesser player than your opponent, you will lose regardless of whether or not you started or not. It doesn't tip the balance in anyones favor, really. And as Krowakot said... You can't win the game on the first turn, which a lot of Fire Xelors still can in this game after the nerf.

But I must admit, I fail to see this OPness you people claim about Water Xelors. Most Xelors I've seen can remove AP 4-5 times, and then it becomes virtually impossible to continue doing so, because of hyperaction. I might lack knowledge about them, but I have yet to see a Xelor lock down someone for more than 1 turn, because of Hyperaction.

But I agree with Iops - They are pretty ridiculous in PvE, and making them stronger in PvP would invariably make them stronger in PvE as well. We don't need Iops stronger than they already are.

I'd say going first in Wakfu is a huge advantage because duels last only very very few rounds.

I think long battles are an indication for a good (at least better) balance.

2Shin - i do know something about chess... had some not that low sport degree in that some years ago. Idea is - for hmm ill call them high level players (not talkin about meself) having white is an advantage. In say world champions fight 1vs1 they go for win when white and for draw when black.

Fire xelors - plz tell me how his goin to deal 1300 dmg in one turn? or u r talkin about lvl 105 fire xelor in moowolf etc vs lvl 80 anyone? Of course he can get crit on burn then roll back then (hmm he has lvl 100 hand too?) 2 hands but isnt it a bit low probability?

Btw please do not forget - there will be lots more levels ahead. so there will be better equip and much more hp for everyone. and with extra level one get 5 points which is mere 1% of damage which is for example 1,6 dmg for allmighty fire xel (and with one lvl u get 5 hp without spending any pts at all)

Water xelor can steal ap only for 2 turns so he has to kill in that time in 1 vs 1. And to do it u need LOTS of ap and skill lvl 100 in 2-3 spells which is not too easy.