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One, there is no point to being stronger. It simply does not matter. How do you not get this? Challenges are superfluous nonsense that drop you an emote or two a day. What power that is, amazing.

Two, you will make the econommic situation worse not better.

Three, there is no PvP in this game right now only who has the higher ini or who uses Fire Cra/Feca combo.

Four there are no tools to sandbox, there are only tools to larp aka roleplay.

Five the effect you people wish this to have will not occur. It will backfire in your faces hard and as I said it outright makes people quit the game. This is how retarded the entire idea is.

Six, don't even try to educate me DeMetz. You would fail horribly. You have no point there at all. Just some wild assumption you are making to make me look bad. My arguments are all sound. We can discuss some sociological theory if you want to know in detail why this will cause a decline of social interaction as all war or in general limiting situations do. As I have shown before this is a horribly limiting situation since it causes players to reduce their experience horizon to 1/4th of what it used to be before. How can anyone actually argue for this?

The only ones having a marginal gain here are some PK kiddies that enjoy the "thrill" of having 5 ini more than their opponent and one shotting them. Every grown up knows: PvP doesn't exist right now and politics are just roleplaying in fancy suits.

Btw guys listen to Venusquake. He has run a government lately.

I mean I have run Bonta government with my guild too in the past, but that was in Beta. So I don't expect anyone to give anything about that.

If you govs think that war with bonta change something for good, you're wrong. Bonta has the best market and that will be even if u try to change it, so just stop. It's annoying for people who wants running dungeons and other things and wont change the situation with markets.
I liked previev govs much more.

Note that the only ones agreeing to this policy are government members btw.

All people that have spoken here and are not in any government are against this idea. So I would really like to see a better explanation to this all than a redistribution of power. Because as I said this doesn't even exist in Wakfu.

Not many are incorruptible by power, not many know how to listen to the people, and not many will bother to put their own agenda aside for the many that they claim their actions is in their best interest for.

It is alright to tend to one's own garden, a bit of selfishness is part of what makes animals and humans survive in the real world. The mouse will run away from the cat, not stand there and unselfishly offer himself to the hungry cat. A simple metaphore, but the point is made.

As human, you've the intelligence to rise above basic instincts, this is yours to use well. You've the capacity to chose the right means to get benefits without it being at the expense of others.

Ask yourself why you'd act at the expense of others? Is it a sense of revenge? Is it a feeling of jealousy? Is it that you feel left behind or neglected and now is your time to get what you feel you deserve?

I do not acknowledge any government that impedes my ability to enjoy this game, and I mean enjoying it in an honorable and respectful fashion, and not abusing this game to feel better about yourself because you might have some issues.

If backstabbing is your idea of fun, you are obviously not mature enough to be in the position of any governmental function. That is my humble opinion, as the ones above are just my opinions.

Cheers
so, Shaleigh1, I agree with you


This post has been edited by TaoZen - April 28, 2012, 18:11:30.

I like the amount of butthurt the war topic produced.

And I'm happy that peaceful days didn't last a several months more because that would result in a critical mass of lazy lovers to farm the same easy mobs and the same dungeons day over day.

"What's wrong with that?" some happy farmer would say. From their point of view everything is fine of course. But the more happy farmers in game, the more Ankama will do to please them (they do want your money, right?). So more people will work on PvE content, and less they'll care about PvP/NvN part.

So the Wakfu will finish it's days as just another PvE game. We are already have a half of million of such games on the market, and we don't need another one, thanks.


This post has been edited by irmin - April 28, 2012, 18:34:49.

That's what I'm saying, pvp is very important aspect of this tactical mmorpg. What tactic can you use in pve? You just midnlessly repeat the same scheme over and over to kill certain mob. BORING. The real tactic can be found in pvp, especially group one. Sadly it doesn't exist in Wakfu.
But some people still will argue with me, that pve should be the only priority or this game doesn't need pvp at all.


This post has been edited by krowakot - April 28, 2012, 18:40:36.

Im not making you anything shaleig. you can do that by yourself, either look good or bad. I absolutly agree with the arguments irmin presented, and absolutly disagree with yours after reading both. So this is a case where we will agree to disagree. Thing is, you do use fallacy in your arguments. You don't have a crystal ball that allows to see the future impact of things, not are you giving a fair chance to some ideas presented and also rebuke other players playstyles and game mindset while speaking for a lot of other players that acording to you are going to hate everyone. So how is this not a BIG assumption on your part? It is.

On another note, when you say I would fail horribly to try to educate you I do agree. You can't teach someone who isn't willing to learn my friend.

i am a 'happy farmer' as you call it. i farm the land not the mobs. and i dont like this simply becasue its causing strife in general.

and no, i dont want peace, love and fluffyness for all, i want pleace love and fluffyness for me an my type, and world war island for the PvPers.

but a 3 sided war against one nations not going to give you that. its going to casue a lot of problems down the line. it going to casue un-nessicary agro to simple players (especialy new ones) that dont understand why their nations allways being the butt of a ar constantly, and why 3 seperate sides are attackting them but not eachother. its going to cause bad nationalism and racisim towards eachothers nation in game.

while i personaly hate the weekend wars for the mess i have to clean up, i think a weekend war is fairer than a month long murderfest in the name of profit. since when did we all become goblins or ferengi?
anyone with some time on their hands can farm cash. that is the problem. the fact that cash means nothing to players. sure they dont liek to waste is on zapps and they prefer to save it..but its still intrinsicly worthless becasue we dont gain it via anything but grinding the mats.

he'res one sugestiion. add a market in the middle of old astrub. set teh tax there to a reasonable level.
give 50% of that tax to the sellers nation, and 50% to the buyers nation from there.
both sides in the bargin have to pay their tax, both sides get some cashflow and make 100% sure that market is NEAUTRAL no matter what nation is at war with what other nation.

and for the love of the harvest goddess...fix the unfinished map nations so you can see where the frell you are going and what the frell you are doing. i cant see didly outside of amakna or bonta. i chose bonta casue im a filthy treehugging hippie and thats the perfect IC (roleplaying) place for my filthy 100% (currently 90% and rising) wakfu treehugger hippie girl. not becasue of some description of the markets there. i havent even used the market other than to look up the price of a garden gem (and faint when i saw how much lol)
if you cant see where you are casue the screens too dark over too much of it, or too bright, you are going to move to another area, its as simple as that. no mater how fantastic your drops are, if you cant SEE them to get them your getting nothing.

The sad thing is peace is more profitable for everyone involved. This is not about money or challenges those can easily be organized by the governments promoted on forums and allies can share them equally, what this is about is about stroking ego of a few people who somehow ended up in government and bored people who think kicking other peoples sandcastles makes them cool strong and above all else smart.

Even if pvp was magically balanced what exactly would it bring you? More kama? More experience? More item drops? More sheep to kill? What? Eternal glory and the envy of the plebs who bask in your benevolent light? What exactly?

I forgot, my guild is mostly Bonta and I'm Brakmarian. No dungeons with guild for me huehue

I oppose last Shaleigh post - people I explained mechanic of this procedure seem to be glad with it's motives, and bound back then still with governor title, I was responsible to explain it to every citizen confused, every crowd gathered. Effects of one single day with.. Gah, let is stay under NGG name.. were surprisingly positive, 550 kamas collected from taxes within 10 hours in Amakna - 1000 during one day in Sufokia.

Gain? Nation funds and more possibilities to content or entertain citizens. No, being gov is not only wearing nice hat and purchasing something once per time.

We have four different nations and each other's got different set made from laws and alliance state. What we do? Observe. Take conclusions, keep eye on effects time, duration, conditions.
Someone needed to sacrifice his popularity to try and research over playing politics other way than repeated till the lethal boredom procedures - and I, Arachne and Guzop stepped on that trail. If Sta.. how is that now? Spalionn doesn't agree with this deed of mine, she always can return to old way. (If not positive points spotted in forecast connected with new law set, I'd even be glad with some copyright, but let's keep duty over the pride. )

War was caused because of people demanding it's weekly tradition; I agree that financially NeutralState Policy harms Bonta most of all of us, but after discussing it with Cloudi and judging state of every nation we agreed on one week of this experiment, then hours of discussion planned, in which this thread has to help us. If this set would change actual "power" of nation, none would agree on such thing, so this argument doesn't count.

One market instead of four? Searching for some resources, sooner or later you'll end up visiting every one, and even then you can't be sure to find what you're searching for, so you'll spend time running around and harvesting. Actual state encourages people - not only high level, but mid levels with trapper's profession, or overtrashed with local mob drops - to put into market harvests and stuff usually wasted, while chance of them getting sold increases.
While searching for resources, one can always drop an item for sale, knowing, that he'll have chance to take a look at market again in near future, or check offer of nation visited, what statistically rises the number of customers.
Outlaw popping once per time can finally give meaning to guard rank.

EDIT Cause I write way too slow than I should - dungeons don't count as any nation territory, so you can run them without problem.


This post has been edited by Jannet-fenix - April 28, 2012, 20:48:34.

Wakfu is an unrestricted PvP game after all. It may sound astonishing to some doves, but many people came here because of that, not because they can kill mobs just-like-in-any-other-game.

So answering your question, PvP brings me... PvP: the smarter enemies, more randomness, more reasons to evolve.

PvE and PvP reduced to duels bring you nothing but hydrocephaly.
 

It is weird though that everyone pro to this little plot here is a part of the governments involved. Including you.

You haven't presented a single argument yet. Yet you get involved all the time for the single purpose of ridiculing me.

You know what they call that? Ad hominem.

I do have a crystal ball btw and it is called science. I happen to study political sciences plus sociology and I know a bit about social interactions and how certain events have certain impacts on the very same. War, my friend, is usually a bullet proof method to cut down on social interactions across borders, to produce hate and prejudices and to (surprise, surprise) destroy economies.Opposed to that economies and also tolerance thrive in open and peaceful environments.

Now you may present me some actual counter arguments, but I guess you have nothing but to attack me on a personal level

To this Irmin guy, Oberyn and I come from a permadeath open PvP game where you loose months of work in a single strike. We are no carebears by any means, but what is happening here serves simply no purpose. PvP is utterly broken and only serves for a few kids to flex their e-powers. The new governments just happen to be those exact same kids sadly. Politics are absolutely underveloped. All options that change the status quo are only there to restrict players experiences.

There is nothing to observe or change, Jannet. Those are absolutely empty phrases. Like a true politican. Why do you need power? What do changes actually bring players? Nothing, absolutely nothing. The only thing you do is limit people.

Edit: Laws changed just now? Did you have mercy with us poor normal players? ^^


This post has been edited by Shaleigh1 - April 28, 2012, 20:05:51.

actualy, i think you will find that more players came for the goverment system, the ecosytem and the supposed sandbox part over the PvP.

you can get unrestricted PvP in many games, you can get slightly restricted pvp in many games. but so far you can only get the ecosystem in wakfu and only wakfu and luminary allow you politics. which are the things that a lot of other players came for.

what makes you think your enemies are going to be smarter just becasue they are player controled anyway? from what i can see, most Pvp these days is ether restricted to a class type (iop cra ect) or a class+elemental type thing. unless of course, your talking bout gankin/PKing which isnt realy PvP its player versus lump that cant do more than whimper in a corner then log off casue it cant play after you follow it around destroying its fun.

if at the end of this week half the servers gone back to their other games, and the other half is happliy battering eachothers brains out and not much more, i guess you will be happy, irmin? want the game or the server to die a death becasue the ONLY thing going on is war war war? why not try call of duty, its warr 24/7 there. (end of replying to particular character)

too many players forget that you need BOTH war and peace. if you spend eternity in war, your going to destroy yourself and your (game) world..but hey, its virtual right, who gives a frell yeah? someone will allways be there to clean up your mess and replant everyhting...repair all the busted up stuff yeah? wrong.
if everyone is busy belting the frell out of eachother, no one is buying. no one is selling and no one is profitin except ankama when you go resubbing. no one will be replanting ether so when all those nice new crafted items get added in a new patch, no one will be botherd to level up their crafting skill to make you it. no one will be arsed to replant. ecologists wont have the gold to buy more seeds, its a helluva price to get together to replace even a few seeds. and guess what, all those nice folks that collected the seeds befor the long wartime, well they left the game ages ago.

oh and it IS restricted pvp. you cant kill someone thats not above the right level (15 far as i know) whats to stop everyone from making a spare lvl 14 and just not leveling past there and not fighting at all?

i hope this experiment fails miserably becasue wars that go on for months is NOT the answer. talking to eachother, talking to the Devs and telling the designers the problem is the answer. getting brakmar and sufokia fixed so you can stand to play there is the answer. getting an extra neutral market that everyone cn use is a good idea allso, casue then the weekend wars can go on and not interupt productivity.
getting a damn island set up to play host to all day all week PvP war over a fortress is an answer too, allong with fixing the damn outlaw system so there is a reason to BE one other than the feeling of constantly being hunted, while not actualy having sod all to do.

and the taxes that are rolling in now will only keep rolling in if you forrever decide to be at war with bonta. becasue other than amakna, no one actualy likes a good chunk of their maps, becasue they are hard to play in. white out or dark out is not a good choice. thats why so many other players go to amakna and bonta. becasue they can actualy SEE to play. dont matter how fancy the markets look if it takes you thru hell or the darkness to get to them.

Shaleigh1, it's hard to discuss with you as there are no logic proofs in your posts and looks like you don't see other people arguments.

The target of current changes is not to increase overall happiness (let's call it so) for all nations. The target is to reduce a huge gap between Bonta and other nations possibilities, so they can compete equally in the future. I'm not related to any government and I can see it. So why can't you?

Any nation must be attractive to new players. Not the only one with the most stable weather, the biggest challenge choice and the best options on the market.

So the war and other economic measures are the best (and let's be fair, the only working) in-game method to achieve it currently.

Of course Bonta and those who don't care about his nation lose most and that's why we see so much butthurt and so little sense and logic in this topic.


Silverbane7, read the NGG members posts first please. Please. It will help, really. They're talking absolutely not about things you're trying to argue with.

I presented actual arguments.

I showed correlations to real life events how war is affecting all the things you guys want to achieve in a negative way. This will eventually lead to the idea to backfire or not work at all in the first place.

I proofed how you cannot even achieve many of your goals because they do not exist in this game. Such as political power.

I showed that a stronger economy has no use either since it can only pay for challenges that give cosmetic or underpowered items.

I showed that PvP is not a factor in the game right now since it is always over after turn 1 or 2 and the one with the highest ini wins.

I underlined that by my experience of players actually and completely quitting the game over this.

No arguments? Really? You gotta do a little better than this.


This post has been edited by Shaleigh1 - April 28, 2012, 20:38:19.

i did read the first post. infact i read all the posts after. and understand them.
but im not going to argue anymore with you irmin simply because all you want is war, and i prefer peace. i want pve and you want pvp end of. enjoy your armeghedon and the drek that is left afterwards, i hope your very happy in your apocalypse where nothing will grow and no one can do anything but smack eachother about the head casue there is zero else to do.

oh and im going to say one more thing to you. go look at Salem. and see how they are planing to do things. it might be more to your liking than the lack of PvP here in wakfu.


This post has been edited by Silverbane7 - April 28, 2012, 20:44:20.

People are getting butthurt because you are saying they can only play 25% of the game, you are making it harder for people to have fun. There are only 3 member of my guild in bonta the other 95 are from other places, I will no longer be able to play with them now.

Actually, the former politics is what makes to play 25% of the game. No political changes, no NvN (except some weekend circus), no need to evolve, no need to communicate to achieve hard goals.

Only grind and farm day over day. And you call it a full game experience? C'mon, it's a thing which prevents half of the people to have real fun.

Yes, there are some problems with multi-nation guilds. Yes, there are some PvP imbalances (I hope half of them will go away after 02.05). But hey, it will never get better unless it impacts many players.

Even if there was a continual war I would still be able to play with my guild, quite a lot of my guild were in bonta today despite the war, war doesn't affect gameplay as much as people think, if you see a group of 6 people 2 of which a outlaws (at war) you probably won't attack them as nobody else is.

but this new law means people get punished just for playing with there friends.