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About those who hit like a truck. I want to talk about how not fair is saying that strong single target spells (mainly only All-in) are OP on Eca. When there aren't any strong str sets, and still need 50% chance to get doubled.

There are many classes who can hit constant 600 every turn (HEALER class included), AoE spells in that.

Eca have only single target spells and his close combats sucks at dmg (only HoT do good dmg when combined with God Eca)


If there will be nerf u will make my favourite class unplayable!!!

Don't do that!

Or if u must nerf All-in then buff other Eca spells.

Hm.... All In tops out at 13 damage per AP at level 100.

However, there's a chance for double damage, 5% per AP used.

So, at most, the move does an average of 19.5 (13 + 50% of 13) damage per AP, which is ... actually rather powerful. But it only hits those heights of you use at least 10 AP all at once. With only 6 AP, it'll do 13 + 30% of 13, or 16.9 damage per AP. (And none of that is counting Precision, which increases the damage directly, or critical hits, which increases the chance of getting double damage)

Eniripsa's most powerful spell, in contrast, does only 15 damage per AP at level 100. That's still surprisingly high for a healer class, but not ridiculously so.

Averages of 12-13 damage per AP is pretty much the standard across all character classes, including most Ecaflip spells, which also has a few low-hitters (Craps only does 11.8 average damage per AP, factoring in the chance of a 7; Heads or Tails does only 11 average damage per AP, and that's not including healing the opponent, so it actually does even less; Fleahopper does a mere 10 damage per AP, though it does heal the caster; and Dice Roulette actually comes out to a pitiful 4.5 average damage per AP when you take the 50% chance for heal into account) and some surprising high-hitters (Rough Tongue maxes out at 15 d/AP; Flea Love does 18 d/AP, albeit split across multiple turns; and All or Nothing tops out at an insane 20 d/AP, but with its own large drawbacks). The Earth spells are all massively boosted by getting the Ecaflip card in Ecaflip's Tarot (for example, with the Ecaflip card, Heads or Tails vaults into the damage lead at 22 damage per AP), but that's not something you can rely on.

I had a point when I started, but then I started playing with all these shiny numbers. Mmm, shiny numbers.

That is my point! This spell isn't OP. At least not when u don't have 10AP.

Compare it Earth Panda or Earth Iops damage output...

I Am surprised, that there is no mention about fire xelors yet.

Okay, let's talk about them. (Remember, these numbers represent the base damage when the spell is level 100 divided by the amount of AP that it costs to cast the spell)

Hand: 12 d/AP
Line of Fire: 10 d/AP
Temporal Burn: 16 d/AP
Temporal Dust: 10 d/AP
Hydrand: 9.5 d/AP

Damage for three out of five of their fire spells is actually below average, and a fourth is at the low side of average. (That average being, again, about 12-13 damage per AP)

Temporal Burn is above average, but it's not the most powerful attack in the game by any means. Temporal Dust is good because it hits a huge area, but its actual damage is below average. Same for Line of Fire (except it has a much smaller AoE).

Earth Pandawa?

Triple Whammy: 13.3 d/AP
Pandawhack: 13 d/AP
Bash Barrel: 12 d/AP
Lactic Acid: 16.25 d/AP
Blisskrieg: 17 d/AP (costs 1 WP point as well)

Some powerful attacks in there, but remember that Earth Pandas can't use their best attacks if they're not carrying their barrel. They do, admittedly, get Merry damage boosts from carrying that barrel (but pay for it later on when they get Depressed).

Earth Iops?

Shaker - 17.25 d/AP
Rocknocerous: 13 d/AP
Impact: 14 d/AP
Charge: 13 d/AP (also costs 1 MP)
Devastate: 13.33 d/AP (also costs 1 MP)

Shaker there is decently above average, Impact is slightly above average, and the rest are only on the high end of average. Of course, Iops hit harder than those numbers imply because they have so many ways to get +damage% bonuses (like Pandawas and Merry, only more so), but that's what their class is all about - being short-range glass cannons. They don't do much else.

Maybe some builds are overpowered, or some specific elemental gear is overpowered, but I'm not seeing any spells here whose base damage is cripplingly overpowered. Whatever is causing the cries of "overpowered", it's not the attack spells themselves.

Edited to add this note: I pulled these numbers from the Wakfu Wikia, so I'm not sure if they're 100% correct. I played most of those classes in Beta, but the numbers have changed considerably since then. If any are wrong, let me know.


This post has been edited by Schmendrick - April 23, 2012, 15:47:39.

You shouldn't compare Temporal Burn to any other skill you've presented. The system for this skill works quite differently. And no, the skill isn't as you say "above average", it's extremely OP.

_/.

People cry fire xelor overpowered for 2 reasons, infinite ap giving feca goes well with temporal dust and timekeeper can gain enough damage stack to make bosses resists a lot less of a detriment. They do have to lose a lot of turns to use timekeeper for that purpose though and timekeeper is pretty unimpressive in regular combat due to the nature of the metagame (things die too fast to bother storing ap for one big hit).

Its system is not different; in fact, it's one of the spells where damage per AP is most applicable (since that is literally how it does its damage).

Say I'm a Xelor. I have 12 AP. I hit you with a level 100 Temporal Burn. I use up all my AP for the turn, and the attack does 12 * 16 = 192 base damage, plus whatever bonus I have for Fire damage.

Say I'm a Iop. I have 12 AP. I hit you with level 100 Shaker (a Iop starting spell, I remind you). The spell does 69 damage, and since Shaker only costs 4 AP, I can use it three times, for total damage of 69 * 3 = 207, plus whatever bonus I have for Earth damage.

So how can only one of those be overpowered? Is 207 suddenly a smaller number than 192? Yeah, Thanks to the Dial and Timekeepr, Xelors can wind up with a crapload of AP for one turn, letting them do incredible amounts of damage for that one turn, but to get there they have to spend several turns doing no damage at all. Doing zero damage for two turns and then doing triple damage on the third turn is not a net gain. It's the same amount of damage per turn, just concentrated into a shorter time span.

And those are hardly the only classes with spells that do much-higher-than-average damage. Ecaflips, as noted, have All-In, All or Nothing, and Flea Love. Pandawas have Lactic Acid and Blisskrieg, also as noted. Enutrofs have Hot Magma and Refinement, which do 17 and 17.83 damage per AP, respectively. Sacriers have Smasher, which takes a while to set up, but does 21.5 damage per AP when you get there, and Punishment does even more with less setup, at 25.4 to 28.8 damage per AP. Even Srams, generally considered to be one of the weakest "combat" classes, has Trauma, which does 17 damage per AP, about the same as Shaker, and against an uninjured target, First Blood does 18 damage per AP. And so on. I'll dig through the rest of the classes later if it amuses me, but right now, it's not amusing me.

So I'm still not seeing the "overpowered". Powerful, yes, but not overpowered. Those two words aren't synonyms.


This post has been edited by Schmendrick - April 23, 2012, 16:22:50.

Heh. This discussion looks painfully familiar. Sounds like the argument I got a year ago when people were screaming that Air Iops were overpowered, and I tried to point out that the Air branch in fact had the weakest attacks for the class. Instead, I got people attempting to explain to me why 10 is a larger number than 16.  

1. Find an Iop with 12 AP. (without suffering major damage % reduction)
2. Temporal Burn is Ranged, Shaker is not.
3. Your comparinson itself is ridiculous.


You compare 207 dmg ( which is highly possible ) to a 197 dmg (unlikely). Really? Whole 10 dmg difference, disregarding even the facts I stated above?

As Ankama is trying to do, ranged skills should be weaker (upcoming Storm Arrow nerf, anyone?) than close combat skills, not the other way around.

Stop calculating and trying to look smart. Go in game and compare your Bomb dmg to any other class (except for, currently, Air Cra and Water Eni).

And whoever complained that Iops are OP, should bite their tongues before speaking gibberish.

_/.


This post has been edited by [MOD]Dalikaeor - April 24, 2012, 07:08:48.

I wish you'd just quote the part of my post you're responding to, rather than the whole thing. It's spammy.

Especially since you're the one not making sense. You say that a Iop getting 207 damage is "highly possible", right after saying that a Iop couldn't possibly have the 12 AP to do that much damage. How can it be both possible and impossible?

And then you say that a Xelor hitting 192 is "unlikely".

So it's "highly possible" for a Iop to hit 200, while you don't think a Xelor can't even reach anywhere near 190 damage, but the Xelor is the one that's too powerful?

(And, remember, that's all BASE damage, not including stats)

And then you go on say that close-range attacks should do more than long-ranged attacks... which is exactly what I said is the case. Shaker, the close-ranged attack, does 17.25 damage per AP, while Burn, the long-ranged attack, does 16 damage per AP, and 17.25 is larger than 16.

So what you're saying should be the case is already the case. I don't see how you claiming that 190 is a bigger number than 200 or that 16 is a bigger number than 17 somehow makes me wrong. Did you just mix up which damage number goes with which class? If so, read it again.

I'm not trying to "sound smart", I'm explaining exactly how the game calculates damage, and then using the actual damage values of the spells themselves.

And calling me names doesn't change what numbers are bigger than other numbers.

Haven't quite mixed, just messed up sequence while i was writing and didn't double check. My bad for not correcting myself. D:
What I simply meant was that even tho the math shows you would hit less with 12 AP (192 as you stated) than a 12 AP earth iop (207), you still forgot to add factors such as the ones I mentioned in points 1,2. Which in the end, makes it highly possible for a Xelor to greatly out damage an Iop, or any other class, except the ones excluded from the list.



By all means, you are correct. Just the probability of having 12 AP earth Iop is, well... quite low.
You should base your calculations on valid builds, that can actually exist and function. Then, your calculations might differ by a mile.

Also, I haven't called you names, yet. (:

_/.


This post has been edited by [MOD]Dalikaeor - April 24, 2012, 07:10:49.