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The problem with the example you're giving is a different hypothetical situation that ignores realistic (Or at least I hope it is) possibilities as well as the other points I mentioned that correspond with that first point. The argument I'm giving is that the Makabra weapons are likely to have other items that can be obtained without paying additional money that can compete against it and the Makabra weapons itself are sellable and have a low cost in euros; these aspects result in the items being optional (If someone were to choose to use the alternative gears) or obtainable by buying it off of someone else for a not-so-absurd price (Based on basic economic principles). If you look at some of the current weapons that exist, it is clear that items that rival Makabra weapons in the future can easily exist. An example I can easily give to make this point is the highly valued (Or at least among the majority of people) stats that the Makabra weapons do not boost; elemental damage percentage. A perfect example of a weapon that fits in this situation is the Riktus Elite Bow. Last time I checked, that weapon gives the following stats at level 55: +25% Earth damage, +3% Critical, +25 Dodge, +50 HP, and +10% damage done from the back. Similarly (From an Eni main's point of view), The Water Bow (+16% Water Damage, +16% Heal, +18 Dodge, +28 HP at level 51) can easily compete against the benefits of a Makabra Wand's full effects (And outshines Makabra Wand at level 51 with the possible debate about the +1 range). Even though the items mentioned doesn't give a +1AP or a +1 Range (In the case of some Makabra weapons), unless that +1 AP grants you to use an additional attack, you'll have to ask yourself if that additional AP will contribute to a better damage than the damage boost. The only exceptions thus far would be the Makabra Great Sword and Makabra Hammer's +20% damage, but that stat probably comes in increments of 1% per 5 levels if my assumption of its growth rate being identical to Makabra Wand's Heal increase percentage rate is correct (Someone correct me if I'm wrong). This means that a significant effect won't be seen until later in the game. Also, I should point out that the need to hunt and update gear is not an ordeal either (A point that I forgot to address earlier); in many cases, you're in an area in which you're gaining exp at a decent -- possibly even the ideal leveling area -- while you're attempting to obtain new gear. Even if you get gear that doesn't fit your character, you can sell it and obtain the gear you're supposed to use (And you still have the exp you gained from attempting to get the gear).

Since that was quite long, here is a short version:

• Realistically, such a gap between boutique items and crafted/dropped items would never exist. Even if it's a hyperbole, it ignores the fact that it soley addresses my first point without considering how that first point ties into the other points I mentioned.
• The weapons currently available suggests (Possibly already capable of competing against the Makbra weapons) that there can easily be future items that compete against the Makabra weapons; examples used were weapons at lv 50s
• Furthermore, an AP gain does not necessarily contribute to better damage, especially when you compare it to weapons giving an elemental damage boost.
• In many cases, you are leveling at a decent rate while you are hunting for gear anyways.
• Reminder of Makabra's effect being gained over time and its stats are commonly outshined by other items at its current level; it might handicap the player when compared to his/her peers around the same level.

Edit: I should also mention that my opinion/stance on the boutique is based on the consideration of the cost of the items in terms of real life currency and its effects from an economic point of view. If this were the Nox (NA) server -- where I originated in Wakfu before I moved here -- I would honestly be arguing for the opposite party since the cost of the items there in terms of real life currency after doing a USD -> Ogrine -> Ogrine cost difference ratio (Nearly triple the amount here) would have very different effects compared to the situation here.


This post has been edited by PrincessBananahammock - March 12, 2012, 23:16:25.

@PrincessBananahammock: Hey, finally! Nice to have you here, better than have to talk over an instant messenger software.

Well, your arguments aim in a high range spectrum, probably trying to address everyone's concerns, so I'll just respond the ones which address my points.

But first, there's one thing I would like to clarify here. You seem to be working through a sense of proportion rather than real values. A margin calculus. If the “unbalance” generated isn't severe, then its negligible and fine. The problem with this kind of approach is that it is completely personal and subjective. Of course you will find people who have the exact same sense of proportion, and they might even be a majority, but you will find people who have completely different standards as well, and since your argument comes from just a sense of proportion, their sense of proportion is just as valid as yours, because it all boils down to feelings, personal perception, not on universal elements.

And second, this argument falls over its own weight at the moment any fluctuation [realistic ones of course] changes the proportions. If a market fluctuation on the Euro affects Ogrines value, causing an inflation, or Ankama rising the price for ogrines for any reason they might have, and suddenly what was “acceptable” can simply change to “unacceptable”. The same would also happen if for any reason a market fluctuation changes the Kama value for Makabras, making them cost more. I would not say this argument is a solid ground to stand unless it's the only approach possible to the subject, which I'm sure it isn't.

Let's start with the points now. I should warn that as you have given yourself the freedom to speculate, I'll do the same.

Regarding their state at high levels there's two things to mind here.

One: If there's not a mechanism that prevents Makabras to gain experience efficiently when their owner is at a level much higher than the item itself, it's possible to exploit the lack of this mechanism. For example, a level 100 player can buy Makabras from the store, rapidly level them through level 100 fight and sell them on the market for kamas when it has achieved a good level. Real world currency to in-game currency conversion with little effort at proportions that can “unbalance the game enough”. If proportion matters to you.

Two: If makabras update themselves to accompany high tier level 100 content, the players who don't have the makabras will be in severe disadvantage. As soon as the new level 100 content is released and makabras update themselves from day one, the player who own a Makabra level 100 will already have an item that is competitive with the new content right from the start, while those who do not have a makabra will have to spend days grinding the new content to update their items. Even if it isn't updated from day one, the players who own a Makabra can still just wait the update to happen, since they'll be attaining competitive items with no additional effort from their previous situation.

Regarding their state at mid level.

Ankama already said that the purpose of the items is to save time. This is an advantage. Sourced in real world currency.

I'm sure you can find hundreds of examples where killing the mob which gives optimum EXP will also have the chance to drop optimum items. But the problem is, if there is just one situation where this does not happen, this argument becomes useless. There will be times where optimum progression or EXP gain will have to be halted to search for gear, and Makabras are meant to annihilate this effort to weapon or ring slot. So yes, a Makabra will save you time as it was meant to from character lv1 to 100. And the level delay or stat deficiency cannot be a trade off for this lack of effort because it still grants optimum EXP gain to the character and a regular player will not always be able to attain an optimum item even if he grinds to. The Makabra saves you time specifically because it removes a portion of grinding from the game from level 1 to 100. And the later grinding needed to get the Makabra to level 100 after the player already attained level 100 cannot be considered a trade off also because the effort to grind the Makabra at this stage might be minor than the effort needed to attain a regular item with competitive Makabra lv100 stats, and the player still has the option to simply sell his Makabra when himself achieves lv100 and get a regular item, thus making use of the reduced effort Makabras give when leveling but not necessarily coping with the grinding part [since grinding a Makabra only happens when the player is level 100].

Also, a player who owns a Makabra can save more kamas to invest on other gearslots, since he is completely relieved from the costs a weapon or ring slot might have.

Regarding accessibility.

The fact that the players can obtain a Makabra through Kamas doesn't solve anything. There is still the fact that someone can attain the items through real world currency and by making the items tradeable now you add one more issue. Now you can use the Makabras to perform a Real currency to in-game currency conversion, a issue that is severe by itself.
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My reason to despise the items is based on game principle. Diferent than a sense of proportion, it is based on universal elements. So I must warn you that any relativistic argument won't really work on my grounds.

PS: I don't remember bashing your college. I don't even know what is your college, how could I bash it? The only thing I can bash now is Forbes mag, hahaha! These guys are only good to compare people's wallet size. On economy subjects they're blind as a mole, and their other ranks have quality standards lower than listverse. Personally, I don't ever trust these “college and universities rankings”, they don't really manage to measure quality.


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 13, 2012, 04:26:32.

Replies are in bold since the forum system doesn't allow more than 5 indents.

i dont think the example i gives ignore realistic possibilities. but if u cant answer it ill leave it as it is.
im just wondering what you think about it anyway.

By unrealistic, I mean the existence of an item with that huge of an advantage over the non-boutique items. What you were proposing would probably never occur unless it was a last attempt to milk the money from the community before the game shuts down (Which I've unfortunately seen done in other games). I honestly would say that the Makbra weapons only have a slight (Slightly moderate at best) advantage over other weapons at best at full stats (And that's only if the extra AP actually contributes to being able to use of an important skill rather than a "minor" skill that has little damage output. Since you're looking for a more direct answer, I'd say that technically (Though I would have problems with the item for very different reasons), it's still not a P2W situation from the point of view on what a person has access to if he/she chooses to not buy directly from the boutique or not. If anything, I would quit the game because it would show a clear inability to establish balance on Ankama's part (Regardless if it were a boutique item or not) instead of the fact that it's a boutique item. And since the concept of selling a Makabra weapon is brought up as an issue of a source of earning kama, you have to acknowledge that it goes both ways. A person can just as easily buy a Makabra weapon that was either unleveled or at a low level and sell it again once they gain some levels with it; that's something that anyone could do whether they choose to buy a Makabra weapon directly from the boutique or not.


This post has been edited by PrincessBananahammock - March 13, 2012, 23:17:29.

[/Quote]

And since the concept of selling a Makabra weapon is brought up as an issue of a source of earning kama, you have to acknowledge that it goes both ways. A person can just as easily buy a Makabra weapon that was either unleveled or at a low level and sell it again once they gain some levels with it; that's something that anyone could do whether they choose to buy a Makabra weapon directly from the boutique or not.

i cut out your first long comment,since ure replying too long for the example i gave,which is not the point of the question.

and for your reply:
I am NOT talking about how someone can acquire the weapon,boutique or not.
I am talking about p2w concept that wakfu have atm,which is $=kamas.

u can use a lot of $,buy boutique stuff,sell in game=kamas,
which means buying in game money with real world money=p2w.


This post has been edited by XbluZeX - March 14, 2012, 16:22:54.

Honestly, that is the reality of the situation and there's no denying that (I don't think P2W would be the best way to describe the issue to a certain extent though I can see the connection to the term). On the flip side though, disabling the ability to transfer/sell a Makabra weapon would create a legitimate advantage over those that don't buy a Makabra weapon through the boutique. Like I mentioned earlier, it's a "side-effect" of Ankama's attempt to reduce the "gap" between those that uses the boutique system and those that doesn't, and the issue boils down to whether the person is willing to accept the consequences of the approach used for Boutique items.

Probably an irrelevant point since prices in the marketplace are far from being stable and the price could easily shoot up exponentially in the future, but I would honestly have to question who would be willing to spend 1.5euro per 80-100 kama considering how little effort it would take to make that amount in-game as well.

rich dudes  

No, I wasn't talking about your item comparison, I was talking about your perception of unbalance. Even if you agree those items cause unbalance inside the game, if there's something which you can define as a trade off for this unbalance or something “good” can come out of it, then you believe it will negate this unbalance or make it so minimum that is negligible. That's why I called it a Sense of Proportions [small, medium, large and so on]. It's a sense that if the unbalance is for any reason small then it is fine to you, the “good sides” will outweight the “bad sides”, that's why I also called it a Margin Calculus. I find curious that you use an economic principles to help you justify the Makabras but prefer to ignore the game principle, like if it was a matter of taste or personal opinion.


The Supply and Demand principle suggests that in a Free Market the price of a good or service will tend to Low on Average. But mind this: Tend. The Supply and Demand principle says that the price of goods or service will tend to be low, not that it will stay low. Booms and Depressions are natural cycles to any economic system, and there will be a businessman exploiting both of them. The price will not stay low one hundred percent of the time, sometimes the fluctuations of Supply and Demand will make them increase, and that's when the exploiting happens. Monopolistic prices can be used in such fluctuations to generate a rapid income of profit. Though it won't be long lived, it is enough to reduce effort from a player in acquisition of Kamas.

And I should also remind you that a trade has no grounds to occur if it violates another principle, in this case, the game principle.


I don't understand what are you saying as disadvantage here... The player is not using the the Makabra to compete with anyone and if a dangerous situations appears outside battle instance the player can quickly switch to its real weapons. The player would be using a Makabra specifically with the purpose of leveling it a little to sell it on the market. And he won't be in severe disadvantage in regular level 100 fights either. In Wakfu, skills have way more weight in the outcome of a battle than the use of weapons, where the use of weapons is purely situational, you could even call Wakfu's weapons a Stat Stick. Weapon or Ring slot is just one slot of an entire gear, and he can perfectly win a level 100 battle without equipping a weapon or ring, because the lack of optimum items in these slots alone won't severely handicap the player's damage output through skills. So yes, the player can perfectly level a Makabra easily till a certain point with level 100 experience fights and sell it on the market with increased price. And yes, through supply and demand principle there will be an increase in a leveled Makabra price, not only because there's more effort than no leveled Makabras in it, but because the item now has a specific level the competition will decrease as it is targeting different types of costumers than not leveled Makabras. If Demand is higher than Supply, the price goes up. If many people start doing this of course the price will tend to low, but is still exploitable.


I'm not talking about new content above level 100. I'm talking about new content, new tier, IN level 100. If level 100 is the level cap, which is likely, I don't believe Ankama would release the game without ¾ of its intended content, even more considering the fact that Skills themselves have a level cap of 100, when they add a new higher tier content to level 100 [like every other MMO out there does with its level cap content] and makabras lv100 update themselves for this new high tier content, its stats will change automatically to be competitive with this new content without any effort at all from the players part [since he won't need to level it at all], while regular players will have to grind for the new items that came with the new tier content. That's what I'm talking about.


You think advantage can derive only from power balance? Effort is also essential to overall balance value. I'm not arguing that a player who uses a Makabra will faceroll other players, I'm arguing that a player who levels with a Makabra will have its effort required reduced through an mechanism that can be sourced in external factors. The level delay and possible stat difference is not enough for a trade off, simply because one defalcated gearslot is not a determining factor for overall balance.


This is not something up to the players, this is not a popularity contest. If you can generate Kamas from real world money you are already violating a principle of games and thus diminishing its quality. I'll repeat, a trade has no grounds to occur if violates an essence. A trade will not be valid only because both sides are benefiting from it, Economy is way more complex than that. And not only that, but as an exploitable feature this can be easily done to generate unbalance, like using the market of cash goods to help the seller buy a very powerful gear.


You know what would solve this issue? Simply don't sell the Makabras through the boutique. Makabras are not needed for the game to be economically viable.


It's not about quantitative value but buying power. Even if it was sold for 10 kamas, if the 10 kamas represent a decent buying power inside the economy then it is exploitable. And besides you can raise the profit by selling easily leveled Makabras. And I'm sure rich and lazy players wouldn't mind spend that amount of money at all.

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Well, since you showed your background it's only fair to show mine as well. I can't say I'm a philosopher since I don't have an intellectual work of my own, I believe such thing should only happen later in the life of a student of Philosophy. But I'm an avid reader [when I said I read at least 80 books per year, I wasn't kidding] and student of Philosophy, and since Philosophy encompasses a very wide range of fields you'll see I have a decent knowledge on many other fields as well. I have no particular specialization since I need to read everything but I tend to gear more toward Classicism and despise most of the Modern Existentialism. About Psychology in particular I have read the some authors mainly from the germanic school like Freud, Carl Jung, Max Pfister, Marie Louise von Franz, Lipot Szondi, Jolande Jacobi and some works about them, and actually, I know some more underground and alternative stuff like the Third Viennese School of Psychotherapy, Paul Diel, Renné le Senne, Arthur Javnov and so on which I'm sure is not popular inside academic circles. I must confess that I don't know that much from quantitative psychology. I read some works about Social Engineering that could enter this field now and then, and I have read the Kinsey Reports and some works about it but I found Kinsey's research ultimately wrongful so I kind of lost interest in the field as a whole. I'm sure you must be more knowledgeable in psychology than I'm. Good luck in your studies =].


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 14, 2012, 20:32:04.

Just to jump into the fun:
You're both wrong. It's lazy AND irrational dudes.


This post has been edited by PrincessBananahammock - March 14, 2012, 23:56:18.

nope. most of rich guys value their time,if they can save their time on gathering kamas, they will.
buying kamas with $ through boutique will save their time on collecting kamas, which is what most of them do.
with the amount of time they saved,they can make more money than what they spent here, its only a few euros for some kamas. so at least i dare to say,some of them are rational dudes.

My first post since launch.

I wanted to play. I came here to subscribe until I saw the boutique. Sorry, but I can't support a Pay2Play *AND* Pay2Win model. Then I got angry when I saw the lousy response "some people don't wanna spend time working for their items, so give us more money and we'll give them to you!". Okay, so lazy, less dedicated players who have more money than sense will always be favoured. Yeah, what a great company.

Btw, who will spend more money in the long run? Those who actually take time and work for their items or those who buy 'em then inevitably get bored of the game 'cause they have all the best items already? Think about it.

Do one or the other, not both 'cause it will flop. I predict within the next 6 months Wakfu will keep the boutique but adapt the F2P model.

See ya!


This post has been edited by Lilly-Mae - March 15, 2012, 18:17:50.

I don't blame you, and the people that just say "alternative options".. what about simple things like the emote?

This is content we are paying a subscription for them to develop and then charging us for it. This monetization is just preventing me from resubbing after my pioneer sub runs out.

I guess you're being stubborn. I don't see why you perceive the study of games simply as an interpretation of games through other fields. I don't even know where do you see Psychology inside the principle. Psychology does in fact have a say in gaming [the act to play a game], but not games themselves [the virtual system would be virtual regardless of the human perspective on the system]. If that's going to invalidate the study of games as an academic field I guess that is to say all those bearded old academics from Cinema should stop studying Cinema, stop making long and complex analysis of the constructions and elements implied at every shot, burn their Diplomas and starting coursing Neurology.

Of course that Games as a media can be interpreted through Linguistics, as an human activity can be interpreted through Neurology, through Psychology, through Biology, through Historiography, through Anthropology, through Sociology, through Economy and so on. As literature, cinema, music, paintings can also be interpreted through these fields. But that's not to say these fields are the only possible way to interpret these bodies. Each one of them have an unique nature filled with their own elements that will form their substance. Each one of them will have their own concepts that are unique to themselves. To say ludology doesn't have its own array of concepts to deal with games is just a downplay. What is the concept of Paidea then? Ludus? Player? Interaction Modules?

Even if Ludology could not be regarded as a “major science”[if you're not aware Science is just a module to deal with and organize knowledge] that wouldn't invalidate the study of games and its findings, or in this case the principle of games, because this principle doesn't directly rely on other fields to exists and thus cannot be considered an arbitrary observation. It is in fact an observation of an objective reality governed by natural laws that are unique to its own substance, the quantification of a nature universal to all games. To say Ludology cannot be regarded as a scholarly study would be the same to say Musicology is not a scholarly study. It just doesn't make any sense at all.


It seems the forum cut part of your text, could you please post again?


I find hard to believe a level 100 player would be in serious risk of death in a level 100 fight because one gearslot is useless, or make the fight excruciatingly difficult because of it. Unless the rest of his gear is crap of course, but being situational, it doesn't make this exploit impossible. One gearslot doesn't represent even ¼ of a players damage output. And remember that this isn't a fight with 5 or 15 levels of difference, but is a Makabra level 0 receiving experience from a level 100 fight. I'm sure that is a big amount of experience for the Makabra if there isn't any diminishing return mechanisms in it. To level it from 0 to 15 shouldn't take much effort from the experience level 100 fight would give. The reason why a Makabra acquires a level delay from its user is likely because the Makabra's total experience curve is more steep than a player's total experience curve.

As an speculation I cannot give any guarantees, but if Makabra's purpose is also to provide a competitive equipment on level 100 like you and Zeitzbach argue, I think its fair to assume they'll update it, otherwise the Makabra will lag behind new tiers and become useless as a lv100 equipment, since low tier gear will become cheaper and cheaper and more accessible as new tier gear is introduced, it will be easier to acquire regular items than to normalize the level delay of a Makabra when the player achieves character level 100. If they don't update then Makabras purpose is only and just only relieve the player from the effort to search for gear while leveling.


The effort is not marginal, they're quite distinct actually. A player who doesn't use a Makabra will have to change its equipment sooner or later, otherwise it'll eventually be outshined even by a Makabra. The player is forced to obtain a new item for that slot. And since we're talking about one specific gearslot, not an entire gear, it is not certain that the player will find a suitable item in time if he is careless about that gearslot. He can pretty much level 10 or 20 levels and not obtain a suitable weapon or ring for his build if he doesn't go for it. A player who uses a Makabra on the other hand has the assurance that it will always have a suitable equipment no matter how much he levels himself. He can pretty much not care about that gearslot, like if it wasn't even there, till he achieves character level 100. No more time spent farming resources to craft an item for that slot, not spending kamas to buy a item for it, no more grinding mobs specifically to get an item for that gearslot. He will even have more kamas saved to invest on other items. It's like if you were paying Ankama to transform a gearslot of yours in a +stats aura that will get stronger as you level yourself, it can be weaker than a slot equipped with an item but you don't have to search any item anymore. This shows why both efforts are quite distinct, and because one of them can be sourced in real world money, it is liable of criticism.


But this doesn't say anything about the nature of the case. That's what I'm talking about. The amount of unbalance a player might accept is completely subjective and has nothing to say about a given feature being righteous or wrongful for the game. Some players even like unbalance. The player's perception can be completely emotional and irrational. Where reason inside game system will tell you that the least amount of unbalance the better, the players on the other hand can simply don't mind it at all, but that isn't to say it is right.


I don't remember people stating that. They're raging because the item is sourced in real world money, this simply should not happen, at all. Even if there were other means to get the Makabra through pure in-game effort, like crafting, they would still be raging because the item is still being sold on the store. We aren't complaining about accessibility. To make it tradeable only makes things worse because of the possibility to convert money to kama. It's like trying to extinguish a fire with gasoline.


You seem to not comprehend what is a principle. A principle, as the name implies, is something that is the the beginning, the first element where all the later elements will derive from, something which has nothing preceding it. The principle is the essence that creates the substance. If you deny the principle you deny the substance. If you ignore the principle you will be left only with its later derivations that without a source will have no natural meaning.

Let's just make an simple analogy here to see if it is easier to understand. Imagine that a hacker creates a bank account in Bank X. And one day he invades the mainframe of Bank X. Instead of depleting someone's account and run away with all the money, he actually takes one dollar from all Bank X's accounts and deposits this money in his own bank account at Bank X and so manages to make a small fortune.

For the general sense of proportion this isn't a problem at all. I'm sure no one became substantially poorer because of one dollar, no damages were made to the Mainframe with the invasion and Bank X still has the same amount of reserves in its domain. Actually, there are good sides of it, like showing to the bank that its security system is flawed and needs to be improved.

However, none of these elements will deny the fact that this is Stealing and Invasion, a violation of the Principle of Property. And such violation is enough to persecute the violator under the Principles of Law and penalize him in accord to the quantity of chaos he generated through stealing. The fact that people find ridiculous to persecute such case wouldn't change at all the fact that he is violating the Principle of Property and that the best to be done is to reverse such violation.

If you violate the principle of game, the game itself will lose an amount of quality. Depending on the severity of the violation the lost of quality won't be even noticed or it will be unbearable. And even if is little, it's still losing quality and the best to be done is to reverse such violation. I can't see why someone would be defending the Makabras under these circumstances.
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Hahaha, I knew you would say that! As a Student of Philosophy my approach to Psychology tends towards Humanism, while the modern academy have become more geared towards Behaviorism and Determinism, specially after the advent of Neurology and Genetics. I don't agree entirely with this shift, but this isn't the place to discuss it anyways.


This post has been edited by Cronqvyst - March 16, 2012, 20:35:26.

I've played lots of games and i can tell you next , there are two concepts to play MMORPGs that exsist right now, 1st is P2P (pay to play) that means what it means and when you do that you should be able to get anything in the game for NO aditional payments wich is not the case in Wakfu implementing the boutique. And the 2nd is F2P(free to play) where you get to play the game for free means no area restrictions or ingame sets , weapons ...etc. BUT there is a boutique that sell VIP items that can in many ways make your character bether than the others who doesnt buy from it. So Ankam should make their mind and make Wakfu P2P or F2P with boutique , there can't be third option, there are so many games that are so much bether than Wakfu and be sure that i'm not gonna think twice to cancel my subscription and go to another game, its simple as that.

P.S
I don't wanna talk about bugs that this game still have even after its release and we pay to expirience them

Cheers!