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[Water Ecaflips] Community Thoughts
Overweighted Chafer * Member Since 2011-08-14
posté April 22, 2013, 10:11:49 | #21
Apdait of ankama a always interesting. Ok.. i try read all text and opinion.. now my opinion (i play every type of ecas include air and water tank-support, now i have fire-crit eca 111 lvl):

special skills (tarro crads, eca die) are main for every elements of ecaflps. At now this to skill are real powerful (eca die have mega dmage boost by CHdamage, taro card now don't get you 1hp).
water brunch are real weak?

Let's take a closer look (I apologize for any errors. I writing in Russian by using Google translate)

---
10 ap - standart build of every class

what we can do for this:

5 rough tonge - 140 base damage (base damage is damage without element bonus). My earth sacr damage do 130 base damage with 9ap... that's real weak

2 up to scratch + 1 rough tonge or Leap .... that's 160 damge... weak too

ok now let see to vampiric spells

3 fleahopper - ya this skill nice. it give you crit hit +21 crit( but less than before)
that do 78 base dmg and don't boost by heal bonus. Bad it or good? because that skill give HP to you it's can be compared with skill which base damge is 156 and if pssive skill (flealine army) work correctly (which I'm not sure) it's analog of 216 base damge. It's real cool. Nad don\t forget it give crit hits for you (but more on that below)

hunter - a lot time ago wind eca (ya we were) can put it under enemy which get you 100% to hit them if he move... now water eca cann't do that. That's bad. This skil give you litle chance to try lock you enemy once again.. and nothing else ambiguos skill =\

1 Flea Love + 1fleahopper = 17 + 26 = 43 base dmg and HP it's look very weak... but stop it dmge enemy 3 times. That we have 17+26 (first turn) 3 fleahopper 78 dmg +17 (second) and 3 fleahopper 78 dmg +17 (third turn) = 233 dmg/3 (to find the average)= 77 dmg. Ya you was right that's real weak it's same as 3 fleahopper... but stop... this spell get bonus by heal? If it work right(which I'm not sure) it give you more HP that spam by 3 fleahopper

and you can do alternative: 1 Flea love (put glyph) + 1flea hopper 35+26= 61 base dmg and next turn is 35+78= 113 for to turn it give you 172 /2 = 86
-----------
if you anderstand this idea you can see that water cat is not weak.
and you can crit eca who hve 100% crit (most of the fight) .. but this is another story. Who want i told it.

My opinion water is is good close cobat fighter+support


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-15
posté April 22, 2013, 12:12:03 | #22
We really arnt talking about base damages, this is more about the passives like flealine army being completely useless and the tree generally not being useful in a team.

Water is not a damage dealer and lacks the ability to support the team in a way that has any demand, we are trying to fix that in this thread, have you read any of this thread?

This comment seems very out of place within the content of this thread.


This post has been edited by HakazabaJub - April 22, 2013, 12:19:14.
Short Strich * Member Since 2012-02-28
posté April 22, 2013, 12:38:43 | #23
>The question is: Do you need a Water Ecaflip in your group? Why?
Surely no.

Thoughts?
I was a fan of a water branch and never even thought about going fire or earth, but now I had to reset to fire. I'd never started this character if i knew it would end like this.
What they did to water cats looks like a silly joke. Cats were just useless, now they are utterly useless.

Now they
1. can not heal.
2. can not deal damage.
3. are badly bugged.

Consensus?
When people play the game they are usually used to get virtually stronger after wasting their time. That's the part of their motivation to open the game tomorrow. When we become weaker and weaker after every patch, what's the sense? Just the fact: several of most active people from the russian community (that "hardcore players", people who paid for several accounts) have left the game in last two months. People enter the game to relax, not to meet the fact that rules of the game are changed again, their equip is ruined, their characters are useless, not to get another portion of frustration. As for me, current consensus seems to look like only very patient people still believe in this game despite of ankama attitude towards players. Ok, you there in the office see the secret statistics -- many people still pay, people still enter the game, but there is not mentioned in the papers that these people get more and more angry after every nerf.

Our consensus about the cat?
Just fix it. Stop kidding. I get we gonna be constructive in this thread, thats not about whining and so on, but what the hell? Why should we beg people just to do their work?


This post has been edited by Nufeen - April 22, 2013, 13:23:04.
Soft Crackler * Member Since 2011-06-06
posté April 22, 2013, 14:40:37 | #24
miLordDen, you don't have a high level water Ecaflip so you don't know. The Water branch, in its default state, doesn't have a reliable damage boost abilities whereas the Sac has very reliable damage boost from Angrrr and Vigor & if I remember correctly there's another passive that gives damage bonus too, for a total of about 200%. Although it requires your HP to be low, Sac, in a team, has a lot of HP and the number you dish out is pretty stable.

The problem of water Ecaflip was never not having enough base damage. It's about not having enough damage bonus to bypass the mob's resistance. Also, as a support unit, water Ecaflip only has subpar performance due to delayed and conditional heal, as well as the healing amount based on life steal being reduced by enemy's water resistance. And well, when you think of Ecaflip's post-resistance damage, it's almost non-existent.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-02-22
posté April 22, 2013, 14:59:31 | #25
I haven't seen many water ecas fighting since the update, since my guild has none my level and since I haven't been playing that much, so I only really have the pdf and the opinions of forum ecas to go on.

for general leveling or fighting I don't mind what I have in my group other than the compulsory one eni, people who only allow cras or enis into leveling groups are idiots. If I was doing a hard dungeon or UB however, I probably wouldn't want a water eca unless it could perform some kind of specific role that a sacrier, feca or eni couldn't perform better, which it currently can't really.

What I feel they need to do is focus far more on health stealing for themselves, as well as to add some lock increasing supports or spells, since if it steals health, its main role in a team is as a tank and tanks need lock. If ecas should heal alongside their normal abilities, then make the water spells heal when targeting an ally, instead of all this roundabout 'heals random nearby ally of the games choice, regardless of which ally actually needs it' nonsense, this random target healing definitely shouldn't replace what they have to heal themselves either.

As for damage, I don't personally think this should be such a concern, an earth sac for instance wins by outlasting and it is the same for water ecas, that being said I find it hard to believe that any eca, air included, will be low damage after enough time in the fight, winning streak is stupidly good at the moment in my opinion.

When people think of tanks, water eca should be up with earth sacs and fecas, this means water ecas need better tanking ability in general, more lock, a way to boost res that doesn't teleport you away from what you are supposed to be locking, better self healing options and better ways to protect or buff allies without stopping your own healing to do so. The crit boost for fleahopper is good, but how about making the other spells give buffs alongside what they already do, for instance hunter making the eca take damage for any allies stood in the glyph, a buff for allies stood in fleeches and up to scratch healing or buffing the allies you pass by?

I agree with most of your new PDF, but I still think lock is needed somewhere, health steal that is exclusive to the eca (therefore guaranteed to not fly off and heal the cra with 10hp lost instead of you) is needed and I disagree with any buffs to anything related to winning streak or supports that increase it. What does allergic state from up to scratch do by the way?


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-15
posté April 22, 2013, 15:10:14 | #26
I just want to point out that the heal is not random, after testing it always goes to the player with the lowest hp%.

Lock would be handy, where do you think we should get it from? I think we would be a fine tank if we were healed by the proper amount the flealove gliph drains(and flea love lasts for as long as it says) but its bugged.


This post has been edited by HakazabaJub - April 22, 2013, 15:11:00.
Squited Arachnee * Member Since 2008-06-02
posté April 22, 2013, 15:14:12 | #27
Well, I've read all posts (so much text for 2 days of thread =P), I find all the ideas very useful, each on on their own way.

But lets get real. Ankama wont re-revamp the class. They won't allocate developers to work massively on Water Ecaflips again for the next year. They got a lot to do on 2013 Roadmap and not so many employees with free-time.

The max they can do are tweaks on the existing spells or maybe (just maybe) implement old Air/Water Branch buffs/debuffs, add effects from other classes or change the damage values a little, since these options are implemented in game already and demand not much time.

Hopefully they might read the suggestions and do something on the existing spells to get close to them. But forget about new implementations.

Our best shoot is (and what I'm trying to achieve): They get knowledge the community isn't happy about the new spells and try to improve them... they won't consider the suggestions (they pay Game Designers for that), they will improve the spell on their own way. The big problem I see is: when?


This post has been edited by ZeraKoN - April 22, 2013, 15:17:12.
Scary Polter * Member Since 2011-08-28
posté April 22, 2013, 15:17:22 | #28
Seriously? ANother Ecaflip thread and Ankama is not closing it, while Sadida thread get's closed within same day... This is really unfair and shows us (Sadida's) that Ankama doesn't give a f**k about Sadida's. Don't understand me wrong, I am not saying this should be closed, but Sadida thread shouldn't be closed either.

Back to topic, I also have an Ecaflip, this is the second class after the Sadida that I really enjoy playing. I have a fire Ecaflip, actually I was hoping more passives to buff the fire branch but sadly earth got more buffs while they were a bit OP already.

Also, I have to agree with most of you. Water branch of this class is really limited while Ankama says they want to give more possibilities to this branch to be able to move a lot and being versatile. The dmg output is poor in comparison to the other 2 elements, the heal is really low and very limited.

I also want to see improvements to this class especially the water branch.
So if you guys are making a petition to fix this class I am full supporting it  


This post has been edited by Karakedi - April 22, 2013, 15:21:34.
posté April 22, 2013, 17:19:20 | #29
i still think the water branch was the biggest mistake Ankama could have made to this class, the Air branch was so much more flexible and given all other air branches on other classes, ecaflip air branch had the highest damage output for an air branch.

BRING ECAFLIP AIR BRANCH BACK!!!


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2008-01-09
posté April 22, 2013, 17:44:50 | #30
The biggest problem with water Eca is of course the lack of his role in party. Why would anyone invite him? His heals are not that good and random, he's not a good dmg dealer, he is not a good tank. All he can do is give crits to one person, which is very nice of course, but not enough.
My propose:
- Fleahopper needs a bit better dmg, like 30, and heal all allies in the aoe by 20-25 base heal.
- Flea Loves cost is too high. Maybe 5ap and 1wp (with 40% chance of gaining back wp) would be better? And it needs to heal all allies in the aoe, not just random person.

Maybe add a new effect for water eca? Every time Eca heals someone, the lvl of "Critica" rises.
It would work like Enis Hygiene, but instead of giving +heal, it would give +crit to all party members.
You would have to use healing spell (like flea love or fleahopper) at least once per turn, if you don't, your Critica lvl comes back to 1. At lvl 100, you would give, let's say, +20 crit.

That would make water eca aoe healer and +crit giver


This post has been edited by Rokugatsu - April 22, 2013, 17:48:16.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-12-11
posté April 22, 2013, 18:04:54 | #31
I enjoy the play style of the new Water Ecaflip and would never turn one away from *most* activities. To answer your question...

I wouldn't want a Water Ecaflip for any of the tougher fights in Wakfu. Some UB encounters require specific positioning to win. From these positions an Ecaflip will not be able to take advantage of the dmg to heal mechanic. As well as some of it's more interesting spells/specialties.

Water doesn't make a reliable tank either. Heal resist is not in a Water Ecaflips favor. Life Steal may sound like a good survival mechanic but it isn't sustainable for longer fights.

I see the future of Water Ecaflip as supporting the Earth and Fire branches when more dual element gear is released. The current Water Ecaflip has some broken spells/mechanics and is too awkward to rely on.

Suggestion:
I would only change one thing to fix the Water branch. Remove the life steal mechanic from water spells and adjust the dmg accordingly. Make an active spell, Cat Lover, that places the Cat Lover state on an ally. This will be similar to a Sacrier's Sacrifice skill. 0-6 range no LoS needed at max. It reduces the dmg of water spell by a certain % but all water spells steal HP and heal the player under the Cat Lover state.


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2011-05-15
posté April 23, 2013, 01:12:18 | #32
First of all, thank you ZeraKon for the thorough work, and your intensity and passion in order to make a change to this very turbulent class.

Do you need a Water Ecaflip in your group? Why?

In relation to this question I would say that water ecaflips has mainly been focused around a specific role which I think would be benefitial in our fellow argument to come to a certain conclution in whether it has been enhanced in its essential role, or whether it's possibilities has been greatly weakened.

The Tank
  • The essential element for a water ecaflip, is for it to act as a valuable tank. Two arguments acts as branches to this build:
  • The first is based upon leeching and stealing HP, and being tough and hard to kill. This has previously been the element of Fleeches and Flea Love. However, in the present update, few maxes the spell "Flea Love" due to its bugs, and the restraint caused by WP, not being able to lay multiple glyphs at a time, and the few numbers of rounds it is actually active. As a result, this has been substituted by the Fleahopper, which indeed, works perfectly when mixing with a good deal of passives that improves critical hits and the mix with rough tongue. However, the possible number of HP to recover has been restricted due to it only being able to cast 3 times a round, and the possible dmg being lowered compared to the previous fleeches. Self-heal could previously reach heights of over 1000 HP as a result of multiple fleeches and the flea loves being triggered by flealine army. It is though important to mention that with the new update, in regards to being alone, tanking and in PVP fights, water ecaflips has indeed been enhanced. This works well, but the build is heavily mono-tactical and lacks a good deal of creativity. Maxing Rough Tongue and Fleahopper is working, you're taking a considerable amount of dmg by spamming Rough Tongue and you can last for some rounds through Fleahopper, but there's only one single enemy to target, the healing is random if any other ally is nearby and the only spell you can use outside this element is the earth spell double or quits, due to the possible plus 2 AP when critting (being benefitial for rough tongue).
  • The second element of the tank is ofcorse being able to be versatile and flexible with your movements. This has been enhanced through Hunter and Scratch Up. Sadly, Hunter can only be cast 1 time a round, and it automatically passes your round, which can be a bummer, in case you wanted to do something else afterwards but it works well in situations of charging monsters and saving allies. Scratch Up is the only high-dmg spell in the whole tree, but it can only be used twice and the high-dmg is restricted to two blocks. While this can be benefitial when AOE-ing, it is not really a very good spell in cooperative situations, as your allies can only be on the right or left sides of the enemy and not in your line (nor beside it). Which, as I've experienced myself, does not really happen too often. With other words, Scratch Up is not really a very benefitial spell in groups with other people, Hunter on the opposite side works perfectly as a tanking-manouvre and getting the dmg over on you but it is restricted.
  • In addition to this, there is really not much of the passives that has been created and had a focus upon the water-tree. Flealine army has lost its popularity due to few watercats using earth and fire spells in general, which was very popular in the previous update, and we've lost the extra damage in water through feline leaps. However, we have received critical hits, that can be focused further through other passives like tarots and dies, and the cat tree can be benefitial sometimes. But its still a lack of something that could belong and benefit only water cats.
  • To conclude, through experience, talking in the forum and by general knowledge, I have come to the resulting answer to be that water ecaflips has gone through a transition that has been healthy, but has reasons to be adjusted further. Previously, we were being known for being inefficient, solo-creatures and PvP cats that was unbelievably hard to kill. We could lay multiple fleeches a round, flea love was good when triggered and we had extra damage through feline leaps. However, it took a round to boost, we would need a good deal of AP and we really did not have any clear role in the work with other players. Maby we could have spammed water-dmg on cracklers, or give a healer the possibility to damage creatures through our fleeches, but other than that we were still soloing in battles, the only possible thing was to lvl fleahopper and give crits. The change that has been done has in its roots had the concepts of making us valuable through being able to heal others and movable, have a greater arsenal of spells and making them all efficient. I support this new change, but I dont think they have been thorough enough when deciding upon what to do with the specific spells. Fleahopper and rough tongue does not work as a teamplayer tactic, especially not with many people, maby only with 2 or 3. The same with Scratch Up. Fleeches, the spell that has really undergone a massive change turned out to be a major let-down, a fiasco and a terrible decision, we are not able to support other players with the spell, and the dmg is too low to be benefitial. I think we are back to the previous role, where we wander around as loners, taking lots of dmg, for ourselves, healing only ourselves, we can easily be substituted by other classes due to other more flexible moves that can be more efficient in cooperation. The build which has been constructed has been a step in the right direction, the root-concepts has been good, but im afraid they will still have to work to make us efficient in combat with others. I hope this will be helpful, and not too much, text (Im used to write lots). I believe that we have to clarify our role in the teamplay with others, which I believed to be tanking, especially now that Hunter has been incorporated, this is the only way we can understand how we can be essential with other players. Maby as a kind of Paladin, tanky and healing.



Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-15
posté April 23, 2013, 02:38:25 | #33
Very good analysis Darthan, Although you failed to mention that the flealine army proc is bugged, that's why no one gets it currently. I would use it if it worked, also 20% is a bit low too as flea love was a much more useful spell and worth the low chances.
Also +heals do like nothing.


Overweighted Chafer * Member Since 2011-08-14
posté April 23, 2013, 06:53:48 | #34
you real don't uderstand me =\ (i give you good calculations of all dmg, but you don't anderstand it and talk mi about sacr passive )

water-eca in party is average close combat fighter, who make not much dmg, have good survival, and give nice crit bonus + light heal to main close combat fighter.

His role is be close contact with sacr/ Iop/panda/sram enemy.
I think you forget about eca tree and CF-aura.

------
Yes. water eca is second close combat fighter, for the most of you this role will not interesting.


p.s. And i played hi LVL water cat. I played all types eca... Water cat is real interesting just with critical close combat fighters (like fire eca). With another partner it's not so interesting.
In my opinion fire or eath will be more useful than water, because DMG dealer is more useful, than second close combat fighter.


This post has been edited by milordDen - April 23, 2013, 06:58:35.
Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-15
posté April 23, 2013, 07:16:31 | #35

Quote (milordDen @ 23 April 2013 06:53) *
you real don't uderstand me =\ (i give you good calculations of all dmg, but you don't anderstand it and talk mi about sacr passive )

water-eca in party is average close combat fighter, who make not much dmg, have good survival, and give nice crit bonus + light heal to main close combat fighter.

His role is be close contact with sacr/ Iop/panda/sram enemy.
I think you forget about eca tree and CF-aura.

------
Yes. water eca is second close combat fighter, for the most of you this role will not interesting.


p.s. And i played hi LVL water cat. I played all types eca... Water cat is real interesting just with critical close combat fighters (like fire eca). With another partner it's not so interesting.
In my opinion fire or eath will be more useful than water, because DMG dealer is more useful, than second close combat fighter.
You're right i'm not sure what your talking about really, all your calculations proved were that fleahopper is a good spell and the others are sub par. Your calculations regarding flea love were all off though as you failed to take the bugs into account.
(also +heal effects barely any skills)

Personally i think that fleahopper still couldd be a bit stronger, heal ressistance makes it lose effectiveness quickly.

Still, i don't know what you are actually trying to say as we really havnt been talking about the base damage, are you saying that the other spells should be stronger in base damage?

We have been talking about things like letting the 2 ap spell heal allies if you target them and flealine army functioning differently.

"but you don't anderstand it and talk mi about sacr passive" im have trouble understanding this, when did you mention sacrier passives? or are you responding to Gynrei?


This post has been edited by HakazabaJub - April 23, 2013, 07:30:25.
Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2011-02-24
posté April 23, 2013, 08:09:54 | #36
The thing is... this class needs a lot of fixing... such as bugs and passives that work better for water... i think we should have a passive that increases HP% based on our water spell levels so earth and fire cant really get a whole lot out of it... feline leap should be changed back to water only because it makes earth stronger when it doesn't need it at all... I mean i just think there could have been better choices for this water spec... I mean the headline said something like "Eni move over there is another healer in town" or something like that... All i really heal is myself still plus i bring NOTHING that any other class couldn't bring to a group... I give ~30% crits at 100 fleahopper... I mean come on its a nice spell but whos gunna bring me just for that spell? NOBODY... this class is better for solo play but its worse for group play now... before i could bump an ally to 100% crits which made me wanted in groups now i cant even do that. This class needs a lot of work still and the revamp for water shouldn't have been put out like this without a bunch of testing in groups... im thinking the company has 6 people that can test a bunch of different parties with water eca and compare... yes in 1v1 PVP they are good but once you get to 2v2 3v3 or even a full party for PvE they become useless... thats how i see it anyway. I think some people will agree with me on that but i doubt any of or words will be considered cuz we are not the french players. I just think this patch was executed poorly even some sadi are mad about what happened to them but i don't play a sadi so i don't know BUT i do play a water eca and they just dont feel fit for party play... You want us to heal? Eni does it better! You want us to tank? Sac and Iop do it better. You want us to play support? Eni does that better with passives then we do with a spell we have to cast! EXPLAIN THIS PLEASE!


Edit: Hope that was followable


This post has been edited by riku942 - April 23, 2013, 08:10:56.
Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2012-06-18
posté April 23, 2013, 08:25:57 | #37
Some of these comments... don't get offended, but seem like they're coming from a spoiled child lol. I've beaten many people in pvp with my water eca(lvl 107) and people love grouping with her and her set isn't even that good. The water eca before the update was ridiculously weak. If this branch needed anything it would be a lil damage buff and fixed bugs.


Overweighted Chafer * Member Since 2011-08-14
posté April 23, 2013, 09:14:36 | #38
sorry for mistake (Englis isn't easy for me and google tranlsate sometime do strange thing =| )

I don't agree that cat real needs passive for HP (may be for lock), at now he have cat tree, fleahopper, CF aura and taro cards (there are card which give heal ability). It's not so simple to kill him.

Water eca can do 9ap build (he real not need 10ap) and get some strong weapon. + i think eca should get a lot of crit hits. (+22 crit and +1 ap or +22 crit +1 range other in HP ) and Eca die. (there are good bonus to CH damage) than they will have real hard dmg and good heal

my opinion what change can be:
flea love should return WP and glyph must heal all ally.
jump (2ap feline leap) can stack it's buff (at now you can get only 50% dmg and heal per turn)
summon (kitty) should get bonus to heal.
skill hunter should have no LoS or die!!!
 


This post has been edited by milordDen - April 23, 2013, 09:17:31.
Overweighted Chafer * Member Since 2012-01-24
posté April 23, 2013, 09:24:18 | #39
Not sure I ever recall an instance where a water ecaflip was needed in a group or even the best to fill whatever role it had (excluding the crit giving but thats meh...)


Short Strich * Member Since 2012-02-28
posté April 23, 2013, 10:31:39 | #40
shooopy, maybe you will share your build then?