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[Water Ecaflips] Community Thoughts

By ZeraKoN 2013-04-21 23:11
Hello everyone, sorry for another Water Ecaflips thread but, I wanna hear the community, and I promiss this is my last attempt to save the branch from the trash can.
Past week I've been trying to change some of the Ecaflip revamped spells, or make the Devs to listen my thoughs about them, but I'm worried things won't change.

The question is: Do you need a Water Ecaflip in your group? Why?
Try to write up some content, please, do not answer poorly like: "Yes... they are cool.", or "No, they suck."

I'm a huge fan of the branch but, for the Devs to get knowledge about the issues, we need a consensus.

1st I managed to writen a PDF about what should change: Click here

2nd Thanks to Cruimary, that managed to gather all bugs from the updates: Click here

3rd I did look forward for every post about the changes and the class itself, that'd show what should change, problems and weakness (sorry if u're one of the listed and didn't like this) - for this step, I took only 3 posts from every player:

Rokugatsu: Click here
Resonate: Click here
Click here
Click here
VisionCelestia: Click here
Click here
Manyfaces: Click here
Darthan: Click here
Click here
Click here
Chronotorious: Click here
Click here
milordDen Click here
Gygas10: Click here
exponentialrage: Click here
Wombatchicken: Click here
Nufeen: Click here
hesinde: Click here
riku942: Click here
Click here
Click here
CoaldustNumbers: Click here
Gynrei: Click here
Click here
Click here
TheGrotesque: Click here
Plutosbane: Click here
Click here
Click here
HakazabaJub: Click here
Click here
Click here
Pantamime: Click here
Bulbasheep: Click here
Click here
Promo76: Click here
Matey: Click here
Reactions 105
If this isn't consensus i don't know what is.wink 
You know what, the whole changes in the previous patch was wrong to begin with. I didn't expect Up To Scratch and Hunter to be implemented. Let me think this through about how Water Eca should be for an interesting (and possibly not overpowered) gameplay, assuming the other 2 branches (and their associated abilities) remain the same.

Edit: Just to avoid confusion, before the patch, Water Ecaflip was also inefficient and boring.
Click here

Also "but it won't get enough replies" isn't an excuse
playing devil's advocate for a sec. So there's a list of people who dislike the changes what about those that do like the changes?

Do you need a Water Ecaflip in your group? Why?

The crits aren't enough to make a difference or to compensate for lack of healing or lack of damage. And adding them all together still doesn't not make enjoyable in the party. Feels like i'm carrying them, If i want to carry some one ill take them to wilds and level them till they are strong enough to level by them self.

Here I'm just going to list some bad things about the recent patch first, more like an analysis than complaint.

Firstly we need to consider what is available to an Ecaflip in general, not just the water branch.
- Tarot cards: having both a good and a bad side. It's not a reliable mechanic to fully rely on though powerful at times. So let's not consider this ability with regards to water ecaflip.
- Ecaflip die: a very powerful mechanic. At high winning streak (WS), you gain an incredible amount of critical hit damage. Being an eca, especially fire & earth, it's almost a given that you're going to do critical damage and should build for it. Building WS has also become easier with the help of the new Black Bow Meow. However, despite all of those advantages, Ecaflip die is still very luck based. Even if after like 2-3 turns, you manage to build up 40 WS, one turn of rolling 1 will decrease 20 of the stack. The Black Bow Meow is also inflexible, and squishy. It is very difficult to keep the kitty around and it dies too fast for its cost.
- Precision: Unlike other classes, an Ecaflip has no reliable and free (passive) means of increasing its damage. So even if an Ecaflip manages to proc a 'precised' hit, the damage doesn't look quite impressive (except for brain hit). Only now that the Earth branch has too many ways to win the odd, thus in a general turn, an Earth Ecaflip would always have boosted damage. For Water? it's still a sad case.
- Leap: Everyone knows what has been changed for this ability. Concerning the buff of Ecaflip die & Black Bow Meow, especially the current state of Tarot cards, the skill should remain as it is about not being able to stack buff 3+ times. However, depending on whether healing related skills are boosted or not, maybe the heal buff should be raise to 100% and last until the beginning of the next turn (meaning after the Eca ends its turn, Flea Love's glyph will still be affected by the Healing buff).
- Cat Tree and Paw Off are just defensive abilities, we can't really comment on their impact on balance yet.
- Double or Quit has 2 edges. It wasn't changed so nothing to say about it.
- I will talk about Flealine Army later, maybe in a different post.

Now let's talk about spells. Think about it, what do you think the role of a Water Ecaflip is in a team? Healing, Support, Offensive Tank right? So does it need Up To Scratch, a movement spell, while it has Feline Leap? Does it need to unexpectedly jump out of position with Hunter? Probably not.

The thing that you all look for in both Up To Scratch and Hunter are just the standard damage per point ratio (of average 15 per AP) that other classes have, not for their movement and unexpected element. This is the thing that Water Ecaflip has always lacked, being able to dish out good damage. If you look at Rough Tongue, it only has 28/2 damage ratio (or could be 31/2 if I remember correctly). Water Ecaflip doesn't have the abilities and base damage to penetrate the resistance of new type of mobs (starting from monks up to Chillberg creatures).

As some people have pointed out, the bad thing about Fleahopper is that its healing part is equal to its post-resistance damage part. If this wasn't the case, the spell itself isn't too bad considering that it has critical buff too. But looking back at this spell, has it changed at all compared to what it was before patch?

Regarding Flea Love, its current state is quite awkward. I'm not talking about whether the base value is balanced or not, I'm saying how the spell currently works is bad in design. How is it bad? First of all, it costs a big chunk of points: 6 AP and 1 WP, for what? A delayed 51 base Healing or a glyph that deals damage and heals at the same time, but very conditional, for very small value per proc and only lasts 2 turns. It heals one target one time for every time it manages to damage 1 target, but doesn't heal a certain target more than 1 times if the number of enemies in the glyph is more than the number of allies.

It's quite stupid really, when some people complain that this class is able to heal and damage at the same time, so its spell base damage must be nerf to sub par. However, when you look at it, Ecaflip, like other classes, only has one similar pool of resources (AP, MP, WP) to spend in a turn. So if it uses an offensive spell, it should do the standard damage, if it uses a hybrid (life steal) spell, let's divide the base by half for each component, if it uses a healing spell (if such a spell exists), let the base healing be at standard (Eni's) level.

I will tell you in a later post, about what my own design of Water Ecaflip would be like.
I'm reading smile 
Your post should be stick at Wakfu Team Office front door! Thank you very much for your opnion, makes me happy to see this kind of in-deeph analysis. Can't wait for your thread!
So to continue, this is what my own design of Water Ecaflip would be. We'll go from spells first, then abilities. I will respect Ankama's design of all other abilities not fully support only the water branch.

Given my belief of Water Ecaflip's role being: Healer, Support and Offensive Tanker, I want Water Ecaflip to have:
- 1 melee spell
- 1 ranged offensive spell
- 1 support spell
- 1 healing only spell
- 1 life steal alike spell

The melee spell
Basically the melee spell would be similar to Rough Tongue, if not exactly the same. Water Ecaflip's role is not damage dealer to do some crazy damage so there's no need for special effects. So the original design for Rough Tongue, as said before, is acceptable.

The ranged offensive spell
Now here comes the important part: a ranged offensive spell. This is for Ecaflips who spec more into being a Healer than into being a tanker, who want to deal damage from afar. I don't want any healing or life steal effect here, as that will just be inefficient to the team. The Ecaflip stays out from the danger zone so there's no need for healing itself. The purpose of this spell is supporting fire. So how does a water Ecaflip do a ranged attack? You might have guessed, it throws fleas (again).

As the Ecaflip is capable of taming the fleas that stay on it so as to have a "Flealine Army", I believe the Ecaflip is capable of training the fleas too for different purposes. There are support fleas which go and steal HP for the Eca and its allies, so there should be 'warrior fleas' of which purpose is to go tearing flesh and inflicting infections on the enemies. The 'infection' shall be an additional effect that:
- could be stacked up on levels like other effects
- does additional damage at the end of the enemy's turn (not at the Ecaflip's turn)
- lower enemies' water resistance
- increase enemies' heal resistance (this does not affect life-steal alike spells used on the enemies) due to infection & bleeding
- the stack resets every time it reaches level 100, however, only after another proc. In other words, then the Ecaflip inflicts the state on the enemy, and it reaches level 100, the state will not wear off immediately. It will wear off after one last proc at the end of the enemy's next turn.

Only this spell will have this state, or it coule be inflicted by chance via Flealine Army. I shall name this Flea Assault.

The support spell
I wanted a spell that can absorb damage. However it will be difficult to justify the mechanic behind such a spell for Ecaflip (a cat). If anyone remembers, the old Flea Bag spell was for this purpose but didn't work quite well as it was more of a life-steal spell with low base value than an armor for absorbing damage. Feline was never meant to be tough skin.

So following HakazabaJub's suggestion. I have this idea about a Fleahopper's alike spell. I will call it 'Fleahopper' too. It will cost 2 MP. If used on an enemy it will increase the critical hit chance of all allies standing adjacent to the target (the damage is insignificant but greater effect is achieved at higher spell level). If used on an allies (or the Ecaflip), it will increase the critical hit chance of the target alone. This is quite similar to Cra's long distance combat. The spell can be used on the Ecaflip (the range has 0 value)

The improved critical hit chance will be a state too, called Capucine (like what it is ingame currently) with a total of 6 levels. 1 level = 1% critical hit chance. Level 1-19 Flea Hopper = Level 1 Capucine. Level 80-99 Flea Hopper = Level 5 Capucine. Level 100 Flea Hopper = Level 6 Capucine. A critical hit will break the 6 level limit and raise the effect to level 9 at level 100 Flea Hopper.

Max = 2 uses per turn.

The healing spell
Again, it's the problem of justifying the mechanic behind the spell. An ecaflip really can't heal someone at a distance, without doing some damage via Fleas to steal life. Therefore, the only thing I came up with is 'Licking wound'. You know how cats, and animals in general tend to lick their wounds right? It's not the best thing to do for injuries but let's believe that it works tongue

This works for balance too, considering an Ecaflip is not the main healer class (like Eni), so with this spell, the Ecaflip will need to get into the melee range and lick the wound for the target, thus heal it for an amount (a standard amount like proper healing spell, instead of being halved value like life-steal spells). Also, with the mechanic of this spell, the Ecaflip can also 'lick' its own wound - thus becomes capable of healing itself.

The life-steal spell
This will be a combination of Flea Love, Fleeches and my own idea. In fact, it will be very simplified compared to the old and current version: The Ecaflip sends a group of Support Fleas towards an area, damage all enemies standing inside and steal their HP, the total stolen amount will be equally distributed between the 2 lowest HP members in the group wherever they are standing on the field.

If assuming the old cost: 6 AP, 1 WP, the spell will have a base value of 70 (like currently). All damages and healing will be instant. The WP cost will be non-refundable. It aims towards group fight, and is quite cost-inefficient in a 1 vs 1. The healing part, of course, is not affected by the enemy's water resistance. In other words, it takes the pre-resistance damage into account.

Personally, I would prefer the cost of 5 AP, for a base value of 40, or 5 AP 1 MP, for a base value of 45.

Feline Leap
This ability originally only supported the water branch. Now with the change having been implemented, as mentioned in the previous post, the damage and healing boost should remain until the beginning of the Ecaflip's next turn for any after-effect to be affected as well.

Flealine Army
The Ecaflip will have a circle zone aura, giving allies (including the Ecaflip) the Capucine effect, of which level depends on the level of Fleahopper. Its effect stack with additional use of Fleahopper. This is not overpowered because the Ecaflip deserves it if he/she invests 100 levels into a pure support spell.

When a Fire or Earth spell is used, the Ecaflip has 20% to cast Flea Assault on the enemy.
When a Water spell is used on an enemy, the Ecaflip has 20% to cause the Infection State.

Increase heal bonus by 40%.

Only 20% because for Fire or Earth branch, it will be quite a significant increase in damage whereas for the Water branch, they have a greater chance to increase the Infection state due to the frequent uses of spells.

Black Bow Meow
This ability doesn't directly affect the water branch but at least let me add one comment. Let the kitty bound to the Ecaflip (as if it is under the effect of K'mir). The cat is always stabilized and follows the Ecaflip wherever it goes, even if it leaps onto higher ground).

If the kitty is not bound to the Ecaflip, let it be like this: The Black Bow Meow, in addition to its current bonus, it will have the same Flealine Army aura as the Ecaflip, and can be controlled to provide support for other team mates.

Note: if the Ecaflip has level 0 Fleahopper, the kitty's Flealine Army aura will also provide nothing.
Just a couple of suggestions i want to add to resonates post that inlcudes uses for the new spells and a fleline army revamp:

First there are terrible damage calculation bugs in flea love and flealine army to deal with(flealine army procs should be able to crit too)

I propose some changes for flealine army:

Increasing the chance to proc on fire and earth spells to 30% and 10% on water spells(20% only made sense with flealove)

Add a Flealine army aura that adds a buff similar to fleabag on allies when they come in contact with the eca. This buff should cast fleahopper once when they are hit by an enemy then be removed until the ecas next turn.

All water spells should add this buff on allies if you cast them on them(mainly for the aoe of up to scratch)

This would promote an interesting playstyle where the eca uses its mobility spells to give its allies this buff, it would add add utility to up to scratch, leap and hunter. it would also have nice synergy with summons such as the black bow meow (perhaps it has this aura on contact too so there is a way of applying the fleas to the eca and more allies).

Edit: damn, this was ment in response to resonates other post, unfortunately i don't agree with his spell changes because think its a bit to boring... damn
One of my guild mates whose main has been a water eca for a while returned to game recently, and he commented that he doesn't feel as powerful or useful anymore or something along those lines.

I might try to get him to express his opinion here, since, yeah.

Im loving all the posts here.
thank god lets hope this gets some attention!
I revised the suggestion a bit from HakazabaJub's comment.
Resonate|2013-04-22 04:27:17I revised the suggestion a bit from HakazabaJub's comment.
Personally, id still prefer my suggestion with the current water skills. I like the way it makes moving around the battlefield important.

The only real issue i have with the current water skills is the bugged damage calculations. i also think that some more utility should be added to them.

For instance rough tongue's description says it destabilizes the opponent, i think it should remove anything that stabilizes the target and the eca perhaps increasing dodge if its an ally and lock on the eca if its an enemy. That adds some small utility that can be very useful in a team fight without altering balance.

Up to scratch would gain this with the flealine army i mentioned.

Ill be more clear with why i find your changes boring. It seems like you have just changed them to generic attack, heal, guard types that does not take advantage of the strategic nature of Wakfu's combat.
I want to emphasize combat positioning with flealine army, when done properly by a good player this will reward the team with healing and extra damage.

I don't want to see water ecas standing in one place spamming their one spell for the role they are performing at the time.

I do agree with you on leap definitely though i would like it to last until the end of next turn like it used to.

Sorry i keep adding edits but, hunter should be invisible to enemies. the aoe is so small that anyone can just walk around it or jump over it. I also think a damage resists buff should be added to the eca when its activated. because the spell adds the opportunity monsters to hit you, where it would have done no damage before.
No no, if you think about it more carefully, you would see that I really emphasized positioning. The Ecaflip will buff the critical hit chance of whoever he stay close so it's important that he chooses to stand close to the Cra or the Sac/Iop. Also he can only heal effectively in range 1 so he needs to move constantly among allies (like a battlefield medic). The 5th spell only heals for significant amount if there are multiple enemies standing in a small area.

The current Up To Scratch spell is the one that is strange. You can only cast it at range 3-4. So for a double cast, you need to leap out, walk back then scratch again. That is so inefficient and there's really no excuse for it. If you want to move around and better position yourself, use leap instead.

About Hunter, do you really think this spell has any strategic purpose? I could imagine an Ecaflip jumps out and stop an enemy from approaching a different target. But for what? In essence, you move away from your kitty, and away from allies who you were supporting. Also, it's the Ecaflip being the squishy one, and not others. Predictable outcome = better planning ahead. Unpredictable moving around will just gives you the excitement of your own but not what the team need. Yet water ecaflips have been complaining about not being invited to UB/dungeon runs.

Edit: About your Up To Scratch + Flealine Army + Fleahopper part. I'm not quite sure what you meant. What I assumed you wanted to say was that either you want to use Up To Scratch to give allies some buffs when Up To Scratch scratches them (the allies), when usually it should damage them instead, or you want to give each ally an Flea Bag buff (the old Flea Bag, not Fleahopper) whenever a water spell is used on an enemy. Both are quite a significant change to what those spells and ability are working now. You should write about them in more details, like I did. As until now I still haven't had an idea of what you were trying to say. Up To Scratch, AOE zone is awkward. It still requires line of sight to target an enemy but its AOE zone are on the two sides. How often do you see a viable scenario for such AOE zone to be effective? Not to mention the AOE damage is only halved of the main target. I don't believe any water ecaflip who are currently playing chose Up To Scratch not for its base damage but for the movement.
All I ask is that you try to make these changes so it doesn't benefit the other branches as well.

For the love of god, please. We don't need any more overall buffs.
axemangx|2013-04-22 07:12:27All I ask is that you try to make these changes so it doesn't benefit the other branches as well.

For the love of god, please. We don't need any more overall buffs.
I'm not sure if your comment was towards my suggestion. If it's not, you should make a constructive comment towards the 1st post. If it is, you may have not read it through. The thing that I suggested for the water branch, that might affect the other 2 branches, is the new Fleahopper and Flealine Army. However, they will only work if those branches invest significant amount of spell exp for the spell (or for Flea Assault), and possibly a diversification of gear for multiple elements as well. It's not like Flealine Army will be a free passive that gives critical hit chance by just pumping 100 ability points into it. There's a price for it and whoever does pay it, he/she deserves it.

Sorry if my comment sounds rushed or harshed. I'm a bit tired for staying up the whole night until 6 AM.
I have a 100+ water eca and its way better than the old water eca... I don't see what the big problem is. I think all water ecas need now is a little damage buff, but resonates ideas look awesome... more flexible. smile 
Why not have it so that the current rough tongue heals allies when you hit them with it for a healing spell? The main issues i have are with the ranged assault and guard spells.

I don't think any change is necessary (apart from heal calculations and i dispersing after hit an enemy 3 times) for flea love because the melee heal it applies would work well with a melee heal spell.

Up to scratch is very useful for mobility, its great for catching up with running opponents, hit and run (first hit then clipping them with the side of the aoe if you can get out of their range. Its a good alternative to leap and is just as efficient at traveling long distances and can do damage at the same time.
I agree hitting the same enemy twice like that is dumb, why do people insist on spamming one spell all the time? I'm a hybrid and enjoy it for getting into groups of enemies(up to scratch+roulette is very satisfying) also melee flea hopper and lick afterwards.

I think that what makes this spell awkward is it hitting allies and doing poor damage on the sides. which can be solved by a side damage increase and the flealine army interaction.

I like using hunter to reposition myself by using an enemie placing the cat in the center so no matter where i teleport to in still in aura range and also place a flea love glyph to ensure enemies will stay in it. It also combos very well with paws off and cat tree.

The really great thing about these spells is you dont need to level them for them to be useful

My problem with it is it leaves the eca very valnerable and it easily avoided vs players and ive given suggestions for that.

Ok the flealine army thing:

This will introduce a buff. This buff will behave like the old fleabag but instead of stealing an amount based upon the fleabag spell(because it no longer exists) it will cant fleahopper on the allies attacker then be removed(just like the old fleabag was removed)

The fleahopper it casts should be weaker than a normal fleahopper 30-100% across all 20 passive levels

This buff will be gained when coming into a range of 1 of the eca from an auraa and when hit with any water spell(i think up to scratch should still do damage but it will be reduced alot because it wouldnt make sense if it healed.)

The black bow meow should also have this aura and be able to effect the eca with it.

Did i miss anything?
Resonate|2013-04-22 01:54:39- Cat Tree and Paw Off are just defensive abilities, we can't really comment on their impact on balance yet.

IMO, there should be a reason to cast level 0 active support spells. Currently Cat Tree of low levels are useless. I pay 2WP to cast it and gain nothing.

I think, the chance to trigger Cat Tree should be nearly the same on all levels of spell. And with leveling it would rise the damage reduction.

As for water tree... I'd like:
1. Feline Leap bonus stay till start of next turn (to boost glyph damage)
2. Rough Tongue with alternative healing effect? - Yes, please. smile 
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