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Ideas for Earth Sadida
Narcissistic Larva * Member Since 2011-05-07
posté January 10, 2014, 05:03:40 | #1
Ideas for Earth Sadida I play an Earth Sadida, and I have some suggestions that would make the class more interesting and balanced

Took some ideas from other forum posters and organized it into one total revamp.

First of all, it would be great if the Sadida could control the dolls (and voodoll), and allow for more tactical gameplay.

Also the dolls are extremely squishy in pvp, it would be nice if their overall hp, and pvp hp was increased.

>Voodoll

- Max level 2AP 1WP, no LOS

Has 40% of the targets HP, extra 50% (can be more or less) in PVP

Damages the target even if it is attacked by an enemy

Does double damaged if affected by an AOE while the linked target is in the same AOE (makes for tactical use of manifold bramble)

> Bramble Armor (on all spells that currently create it) It has the same armor values, and the same reflection values (not sure what they are exactly, I cant find a tooltip or anything that states it) but it doesn't need to be cast on self to be activated, but if it is it's a much stronger shield, with smaller offensive values.

If cast on an enemy, creates a shield for the sadida of the value of the armor

Armors absorb the damage, and reflect 25% of the damage taken back at the attacker

If cast on ally, creates shield of the double value of the armor, absorbs the armor and reflects 15% of the damage taken back at the attacker

> Manifold Armor - It's really useless in a group sometimes. Most of the time you will be hitting allies if you want to use it to its full potential. Remove the trap part of the spell and create a very small bramble shield on all allies hit.

>Earthquake - Has 1-36 range, damages allies, but can be targeted, and used on dolls as the epicenter of the earthquake. Earthquake is too random and a useless spell 99% of the time. Another thing you could add is that allies don't take damage at all from earthquake if they have shield activated on them.

Madoll > Irritation > Pushes enemies back 1 cells. Can be casted twice

Block > attracts enemies up to 3 cells away. Can be casted only once

TL;DR
Basically now Sadida is more of a offensive tank/shield/supportive mage with some reflect damage, and some very practical/tactical summons, and deserves these buffs because with dolls their base damage is weak (no lone sadida), and dolls are extremely squishy (especially in pvp) with bad AI.

Please also make suggestions of what buffs/nerfs Water and Air should have in comparison to earth, corrections, and what I should balance out.

Thanks for reading


This post has been edited by Moonwalkercat - January 10, 2014, 05:10:23.
Reason for edit : forgot something
Short Strich * Member Since 2013-11-02
posté January 10, 2014, 05:34:55 | #2
why does totem have to be 40% of target's hp?


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-05-25
posté January 10, 2014, 10:51:32 | #3
We have the doll that can push - its called ultrapowerful doll with the Gust spell remembered. No need for another doll (madoll) to do that. Instead ithink madoll could apply Critical failure to enemies, that would be more useful then -1MP that take place AFTER sadida turn, wich doesn't help much especially with Hypermovement triggers.

As for earth spells - you are basically asking for the same mechanic that sacriers have with theirs with just change that it will be stronger shield then it is now when cast on self. I think the reason why the shield is weaker then the dmg and also the reason why we cannot attack with these spells if we want to shield self is because of the heal mechanic on water spells and to make the heal still a better option to use untill that heal resist make it too low and then we would use earth spells. Its Ankama logic i don't think they will change that.

The reason why voodoll give half of the aoe dmg to enemy is exactly TO NOT make you inflict double dmg from aoe spells. Its already 1.5 of the initial dmg if you manage to aim for voodoll and enemy with the same aoe wich is already nice.

I agree that dolls should be controled by default (or using 1 spell on self with quick cast should let us control them all if that would be easier to program).

As for voodoll HP - as long as we hurt voodoll's HP when we use it - i will dislike the concept of "part of the target HP" on voodoll.

Summary: your suggestions are not balanced. Rather increase the bramly armor levels from each spell and keep it the way it is applied. Or better: make it not vanish if it wasnt removed by damage, so that we could use dolls to "avoid dmg" shield ourself and then when cornered enemy would need to remove the shield from us while we would have free ap's to attack him. I'd like that more.

Controlable aoe spell with "unlimited' range would be overpowered or too cheap tool to be used. Now i wouldnt want the cost change of this spell and i'd like to still keep it powerful. however if its meant to be both cheap (1MP) and powerful (40 base at level 100) then it simply HAS to be random in one way or another.

I had this idea that i was discussing with other sadida players in-game and they said it would be perfect change:

Make earthquake spawn from random target as epicenter - this will include dolls, beacons, allies, enemies and sadida itself (anything that can be damaged, even dial) with 3 cell circle aoe. That would help Sadida in fight against xelor as xelor on dial would have higher chance to be hit (66,(3)%) comparing to sadida hurting self when casting it (33,(3)%). Summoning dolls near enemy will also increase the Earthquake to appear "when the crowd gathered" aka at dolls or at enemy near them, but will never nulify the chance that Sadida could still hurt self. The more the dolls closer to enemies or the more the enemies closer to eachother and the less allies close to eachother - the higher chance of this spell to actually hurt enemies and not allies. Also i think manifold bramble should shield allies if no enemy is within aoe zone and it would give smaller shield when enemy will be hit while allies would be in aoe too AND it could deal more dmg if no ally would be within aoe. That combined with ability for brambly armor to NOT dissapear at start of sadida turn would let you use Earthquake while your allies would be shielded (also if brambly armor would apply right away instead of Armor-To-Be). The dolls could be immune to earthquake damage (just like they are immune to rust) and all dolls on the field (targeted or not) would get nettle (wether sadida is hurt or not). There was also nice suggestion added to it that all allies and enemies (ecept dolls who get nettled) would loose MP (except sadida who alrady lost mp to cast this spell). Obviously it would build up hypermovement so might not be effective all the time but would help in sadida concept to keep enemies in place (it would also keep allies in place so careful when you use it).

That earthquake would have casting range 0 (on self) wich would nulify current targeting problems.


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - January 10, 2014, 11:04:03.
Narcissistic Larva * Member Since 2011-05-07
posté January 10, 2014, 16:51:40 | #4
Thanks for the feedback, this is what I meant by the brambly shield changes:

There could also be two armors ;

(light green/orange bramble) Brambly armor - Is stronger, and is applied after the turn and then disappears. Is applied when enemy is hit, is stronger when applied on an ally but has less reflective bonuses.

(dark green/brown brambles) Bramble shell - Is the same but weaker, adds up over time.

When cast on an enemy, a shield is applied to the sadida, and after they pass their turn it is applied. It is exactly the same as the shield in game, except smaller than the current shield in game, but it doesn't need to be cast on an ally for the shield to be applied (smaller shield as you suggested, but more offensive %reflect)

I'm not sure if that would be overpowered though but, the shield could be much smaller per spell, but does not vanish until it is destroyed like you suggested.

When cast on an ally, the shield is stronger, but doesn't maintain as very much of the reflective bonuses at all (more defensive, larger shield, smaller %reflect).

Same thing here where it would be a bit smaller, more defensive, and doesn't get removed until destroyed.

Earthquakes damage will be reduced by 50%, (because yes that would be really cheap if you could do that for the current damage it has) but you can choose your own target summon anywhere on the map. It will also do damage to allies and enemies (unless the ally/enemy is shielded then it will damage the shield).

Madoll will retain the 1 cell push (and it can do it at a range of course), but it can use it twice and it's not in an AOE. Its less expensive than the UP doll, It doesn't do any at all damage though, and lowers the targets earth resistance by 5% of the sadidas strength. The madoll will have its current hp, increased in pvp of course, not require a LOS, and do no damage. It will also no longer take MP

IMO crit-failures sounds too unreliable, and if its made reliable (such as 10% crit fail chance) that would be really overpowered with no counter-play involved, since you are already damaged by the sadida shield anyway when you attack.

The block> The block is good already, just increase the pvp hp slightly.

Another idea since you dislike the Voodoll %hp of target concept, is that it could have charges (1 charge per control, command, leveling up support spell mastery etc) For every spell you use, it consumes 1 charge instead of having the targets hp. It does not lose charges per turn

And it will consume 1 charge and do 1.5 extra damage if theres an AOE with both the enemy and the voodoll in it.


This post has been edited by Moonwalkercat - January 10, 2014, 16:54:01.
Reason for edit : forgot something again :P
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-05-25
posté January 10, 2014, 18:06:16 | #5

Quote (Moonwalkercat @ 10 January 2014 16:51) *
Earthquakes damage will be reduced by 50%, (because yes that would be really cheap if you could do that for the current damage it has) but you can choose your own target summon anywhere on the map. It will also do damage to allies and enemies (unless the ally/enemy is shielded then it will damage the shield).
How about ... NO!

I would hate such change. It would be just like Scaraleaf spell with aoe and unlimited range - i don't want such "Additional accurate spell aoe". We have manifold bramble for that. Nothing with more range possible should be that reliable as manifold bramble. I say no to reduced dmg. Earthquake is meant to be powerful and Sadida is meant to use it with MP leftovers. Why you want to ruin the fun part of the earthquake completly instead of improving it (and with the dmg nerf, really?) No, thank you. Think of something else.

If you can choose where it hit then it wil be obvious you will not hit the allies. So whats the point?

If you have to target the zone with such range then good luck using it togather with other spells - you will have too many spells to cast during 1 turn. Casting it on self can be done faster way and that i would like to see changed.

The point about doll is that we do not want to have that costly Ultrapowerful dolls. Wich will make your point of "madoll is cheaper" non existant if each doll would cost the same amount of AP. The UP can deal dmg and push twice, so no point for madoll to do that too. Besides it might end up making madoll push enemy towards you if it run away and then move after enemy in next turn wich i would also hate. Unless they need to target empty cell next to enemy to actually push - like UP need, but then it would mess up with the AI as i doubt they will aim the right cell. If they are controled by default then it wouldn't be the issue obviously. Still no point having 2 dolls to do the same stuff. Think of something else if you really want to change madoll. Or apply the change to madoll as you suggest but then rework completl the air dolls.

Crit failure chance would be awsome help for sadida especially that 1 madoll summoned = 1 less attacking doll summoned. A push does simply not justify it. The problem with current madoll is only that its effect loose effectiveness as the fight progress due to Hypermovement. If not the Hypermovement then Madoll would be still fine to use, though it would be overpowered to have 6 of those in pvp as you will permanently immobilize your enemy. Crit failure is better option. It won't stop enemy from reaching you but it might make it fail to cast the spell on you. Something that can be useful for any enemy - even ranged such as cra. I would far more like Madoll to apply 3% Crti Failure (lvl 100) instead of -1MP with hypermovement. I would even actually use it vs the enemies that i cannot beat tactically (for example vs ecaflip who can KO you easily with Double or Quits - if he fail to dmg me with All In, then thats like whole turn of safety for me).

1 Doll doesn't need to be superb. The whole concept of sadida is to have multiple dolls, wich are stronger togather. The power of dolls is the power of many.

About Block i have to also disagree. It should have 2MP - a lot of Sadidas will tell you the same. ITs also not effective to tank anything in higher level content, nor in UB fight, wich ask for doubled HP, not "slight increase" of it.

About voodoll - omg STOP it! You are suggesting it to be even worse then it already is! Charges? A big NO here. We dont want the ankama to hear it - they consider charges as the "HP lost each turn". You will kill the Voodoll. And the option to have it loose charge when we hit it is not even better then making it loose HP when we hit it. In fact you are making it even worse because if i will cast Poisoned wind 5 times then it will kill the Voodoll instantly if i have 5 Control. So yeah... uhmm.. stop with that suggestions. We don't deserve another nerf.


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - January 10, 2014, 18:11:35.
Ugly Gobball * Member Since 2013-12-05
posté January 10, 2014, 18:23:36 | #6
I honestly don't like the randomness of earthquake thats just my opinion. I just did the 50% damage removal to make it fair. Instead it could be 10% if its that is better. Note that I wouldn't use these ideas for a update, I'd use these for an future overall revamp of the class. Theres no strategy involved in the current earthquake other than 4 different directions and looking at the resist of the other fighters. You would have to position your dolls properly if you wanted to use it now.

Also this revamp would go with another complete revamp of the other branches/support spells.

IMO air - AOE poisons, DPT, and status effects, and damage overtime.

Water - I like all the water spells, only thing I dislike about water is that I'm unsure if it would be great as lone sadida. I would not prefer to spam low hp greedies either. Needs some versatility/value changes.

Earth - Working on it right now. Trying to make it a offensive type shield character, with dolls that tank for the sadida by preventing them from reaching them.

Voodoll - I don't know where you are coming from. It can have as many charges as it would need so its not a nerf. I make 3 hits on voodoll before it dies usually (wild grass), so having a new support passive + all control, it could have up to 15 charges! (up to a cap of course). Try not to cast 5 poisoned wind also, using wild grass, fertilizer or bramble would be better. I wouldn't suggest a air sadida to cast poisoned wind on voodolls rather than an enemy or doll. thats a overall buff. And you said you don't like voodoll with % of target. So what else could it be?

Block - unsure what changes to do to block

Madoll - 2 pushes, cheap to make.

all dolls are controlled by the sadida by default.

edit: moonwalkercat is my alt, I'm currently playing my earth sadida on this account.


This post has been edited by xXx-sarah-xXx - January 10, 2014, 18:26:38.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-05-25
posté January 10, 2014, 18:42:21 | #7
Try not to cast poisoned wind 5 times? What are you asking me to not do? Do not be air? What gives?

It only shows how little you know about Sadida.

The fact that you kill voodoll with just 3 cast of Wild Grass is also BAD. But go on UB fight and it will last longer. Now with the charges system you suggest it won't. 15 Control? What for? We are limited to 6 dolls by the WP. I think you are doing something wrong. You are too young in this class it seems. Why the obvious nerf you call a buff?

We didnt said we dont like voodoll with HP. We said that 40% of target HP is lame HP for voodoll.

I have suggested at least 3 options for cool Voodoll in other topics. But for you i will repeat them here:

Version 1:

Voodoll has 40% of target HP as it does now but it have it as fixed number from level 0 to 9 so it is equally effective just with different cost and range at different level of this active speciality. In same time it does not loose HP when allies use it to redirect dmg. The enemy also suffer dmg when it attack this voodoll, but it will make voodoll loose HP (so voodoll can die only if enemy attack it).

Version 2:

Voodoll has 100% of target HP, loose HP when both allies and enemies attack it but does not make enemy suffer dmg if it attack it to kill it.

Version 3:

Voodoll has 1HP and redirect 100% of dmg to the target linked. Does not suffer any dmg from allies. However if enemy attack it, it will be instantly KO'ed. It may trigger Explodoll just like other Dolls do, so that if enemy will use cheapest, not leveled spell to kill the voodoll - it will still suffer some decent dmg.

There. Pick one. Doesn't matter wich one. They are all well designed.

p.s water sadida is also meant to make the greedy dolls attack the voodoll. Since sadida rely on the multiple hits from dolls, the concept of the voodoll having charges is a failure from the start.


Narcissistic Larva * Member Since 2011-05-07
posté January 10, 2014, 18:49:39 | #8
You are sounding condescending right now, this is just my opinion on how earth sadida should be. Also I changed a lot of my ideas based on your suggestions. And now you tell me I know little about sadida? I meant that you shouldn't cast 5 poisoned winds on the voodoll. Its a pretty useful spell actually.

And you are assuming that I read your guides, and that I should change my whole guide to be exactly the same as yours.

This is a guide meant to be part of a revamp of the whole class to welcome new and different ideas and approaches.

I'll finish my guide completely, and then post the rest of it.

Please don't reply. I don't need to change it to be exactly the same as yours. You have your own guide this is mine and I changed a lot of it to what you wanted it to be and now you are just being rude.

Also I don't work for Amakna so theres a extremely likely chance that none of my ideas would be implemented in game anyway.


This post has been edited by Moonwalkercat - January 10, 2014, 18:50:54.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-05-25
posté January 10, 2014, 21:44:44 | #9
Sorry for being rude but after last revamp i am being oversensitive as i realised that Ankama actually sneakily reads the formus even if they don't reply. However they are choosing random ideas of random people and connecting them to each other. Sewing one to another give us the messed up result that doesn't fit well togather and if not the thread, then we couldn't even tell its one class.

Thats why when i see an suggestion for the class i love that would simply ruin the fun that i see in it i am overreacting.

And please don't tell me to not reply. I am not your kid.

The voodoll should be useful for all branches not just for earth. Therfore i don't like the concept that would make voodoll work well with just earth strong and costly spells but would be less effective with cheap air spells, especially that its earth spells that has better range then the air spells and its air spells that would benefit more from it.

I understand that you like to make voodoll loose HP when you use it, but i don't. It wasn't like that before if you have to know, wich is why i am saying you are too young in this class. Redirected dmg should be fully redirected. Why the 2nd dmg appear on the voodoll HP? And why enemy is immune to the dmg caused on the voodoll? The current voodoll is enemy-friendly because of that. They should reverse the situation and make it ally-firendly. Change from HP to charges won't make a difference if we still make it loose "durability" as we use it.


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - January 10, 2014, 21:45:23.
Narcissistic Larva * Member Since 2011-05-07
posté January 11, 2014, 00:21:39 | #10
If the Sadida's Voodoll never lost hp would it stay for the entire duration of the fight?


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-05-25
posté January 11, 2014, 01:46:33 | #11

Quote (Moonwalkercat @ 11 January 2014 00:21) *
If the Sadida's Voodoll never lost hp would it stay for the entire duration of the fight?
Before Sadida revamp, Sadida had "Totem" called "Voodoll". It was similar to those that Excarnus summon. That Voodoll was lasting until the enemy linked to it died. The enemy had no ability to get rid of it. However there was 1 trick - the pushback dmg was killing the Totem (voodoll) as it had set 1HP and could not redirect the pushback somehow. It was both good and bad - it was bad because it made Sadida loose WP by accident sometimes or was a cheap way for enemy to kill the voodoll, wich also made sadida loose WP too fast to the point that sadida were not using it in pvp much (at least not against someone who could push).

Ankama wanted to change it somehow and they revamped "totem" into a "dead doll that lye on the ground" and anyone could step on it just like anyone can stop on microbot. However it was inactive when people (or beacons, summons) were standing on it, wich brought more complains this time from Sadida, as enemies enjoyed blocking it (and dolls AI were stupid enough to stop walking exactly on voodoll).

This made Ankama revamp the Voodoll once again and this time they turned it to the walking doll. This doll can be pushed, pulled, even dragged with K'mir, etc (and it doesnt get destroyed from pushback dmg). However unlike Totem or the "dead doll" they made it mobile (2MP) but without the control of it, it just run away to the far away corner, wich is not conveniet in longer run (unlike Totem that was standing still where you summoned it). Also unlike previous versions it no longer have the longevity of the target linked to it, but just part of the HP of it.

This change was propably made to give enemis the ability to "get rid of the voodoll before they die". It was also propably becuase of that that the enemies can no longer hurt self by attacking voodoll (first 2 versions could have been used in pve for tricking monsters AI to aoe near totem and hurt self wich was fun to do ^^). However it is just completly wrong to make our own spells hurt the Voodoll.

Therefore the final conclusion is that Voodoll should not loose HP from anything else then enemy attacks. Question is if it should or should not redirect dmg to enemies while they attack it. And it depends on the amount of HP the Voodoll will have. But basically Voodoll already had the same longvity as the target linked to it, and it was fine.