Browse forums

Small ideas for the Sadida class

By Hudski - MEMBER (+) - 2013-12-13 00:54
I just want to talk about a few small changes I'd like to see in the short-term to make what's here a little more bearable. Maybe we can push something small to the developers and say, 'Hey, at least do this'. Maybe they'll do something small, you never know. Anyway:

Vaporise: Reduced to 1AP.
On doll: Removes the doll from the field and restores a percentage of the sadida's max health based on the doll summoned (the AP spent to create the doll) and 1 WP. Greedy = 4%, Block = 6%, etc.
On ally: Restores HP equal to damage dealt
On ally, enemy or Voodoll: -1 AP to Sadida

Tree: Restores a percentage of the Sadida's max HP based on MP and AP consumed. 1MP = 4% restored, 1AP = 2% restored

Dolly Sacrifice: No cost to cast. Condition: AP >0
On doll: Returns the doll to seed form and restores the same as Vaporise, but -2% for the cost of the seed. -1 AP to Sadida
On seed: Removes the seed from play and restores 2% of the sadida's max health and 1 WP.

Sic 'Em More: Applies the Controlled state

Green Guard: Applies the Controlled state


What I want to achieve with this handful of changes is, I wanted a way to immediately remove dolls from the field to save precious time. Dolly Sacrifice retains its function, but its health restoration is no longer chromatic, because Sadidas do not have a passive damage spell*. Their damage%'s are lower than other classes, and additionally, the base heal on Sacrifice isn't enough.

Making the heal health based instead of damage based achieves two things:
  • It allows Sadidas to dump health to improve their dolls health
  • It allows Sadidas to dump health to improve their own health recovery
I have modified Vaporise and Dolly Sacrifice to work in this way. I have also left Dolly Sacrifice as it is, due to not having Line of Sight constraints. I didn't want to disable LoS on Vaporise, because that would completely nullify Dolly Sacrifice in a lot of situations.

I have reduced Vaporise and Dolly Sacrifice cost by 1ap, and incurred a 1AP loss on the Sadida instead (like Magnetic Claw) to enable the Sadida to use Vaporise with their final AP, as that's a problem I'm sure we're all quite sick of with the current Vaporise.

With Tree, I wanted to make it useable regardless of Lone Sadida. A cast of Tree with 150% Lone Sadida bonus is significantly better than a cast of Tree with 0% Lone Sadida bonus. It makes me regret casting Tree when I have dolls out, or within the first few turns of a battle. This is something I object to.

Ideally, a Sadida that casts Tree at the beginning of their turn will restore 44% of their max HP (12AP 5MP). This is less than what you would get if you cast Mudool*4 on yourself before casting Tree, but it gives non-water sadidas a way to restore health. The Sadida class is, in my eyes, supposed to survive where no other would, but only Water sadidas meet that classification.

It also meshes in with the current Sadida, that gets its wings at 12AP, but that doesn't leave many points leftover. Making more of their spells revolve around HP will allow Sadidas to stat HP if they really want to, and will have benefits beyond what most other classes would get from a similar investment.

Sic 'Em More and Green Guard should automatically allow the Sadida control over their dolls, because dolls frankly do not know what to do with all the extra MP. It worked when they gained AP, but lots of MP hugely confuses certain dolls like The Inflatable, which is programmed to use ALL of its MP, and often runs into penalty tiles or corners where its 2mp will not allow it to return fast enough.

These are just some thoughts I had. Let me know what you think.

*Lone Sadida adds passive damage to Sadidas but this has no bearing on the health gained from Dolly Sacrifice because the two skills are incompatible. A Sadida with the capacity to cast Dolly Sacrifice has no capacity to hold Lone Sadida, and vice versa. 
Reactions 14
A question, How would Vaporize work on just a plain seed? total cost and effect?
smallz117|2013-12-13 06:34:43A question, How would Vaporize work on just a plain seed? total cost and effect?

It would summon a Greedy and deduct 1ap from the Sadida.
Doll sac, I like the cost change, but not quite sure on the percentage. I feel the main aspect of the spell is for the refresh of a doll into a seed for a cheaper cost than just letting the doll die and resummoning a seed. The heal is there mostly to make the value of the spell have a more overall appeal. Doll Sac's primary focus is not a healing spell.
Also, I feel a percentage based effect would actually serve better on Explodoll. This would help with balance since you get a nice boost if you doll does actually end up dieing. It's the reward for making your dolls survival longer, by making them deal more damage/heal allies more upon death. Not jsut a flat percentage, but maybe make it like 5% of the dolls max hp becomes the base damage of the heal/damage from Explodoll. (A 2k hp sadida would have Blocks that have a base 32 damage/heal, Greedies would be base 18, etc)

Vaporize, I can see how it would work, ofc I guess for what I i talked about on Doll Sac, the value on the heal would have to be similar/the same. I'm just afraid this would become the spell that would straight up replace doll sac no matter what unless you need to specifically turn the doll back into a seed or if LoS is a big problem for you (but if LoS is a problem, you'll generally have a problem making use of that seed anyway, which is the main reason for having Doll Sac in the first place).
Maybe make it a cost of 2ap but heals the value of vaporize's damage. Slightly smaller heal when compared to Doll Sac but you get the speed of removing the doll, although now there's the problem of a '2ap doll sac imitation' for the sake of saving time. Hard to balance for, maybe heal allied dolls also by half the heal you healed for or something else.

Green Guard I feel shouldn't have the doll control, but yes for Sic'Em More, it would be nice for Sic'Em More to have that over Green Guard, imo, but that's just how I value those spells in regard to each other.

Tree, at first I was a bit iffy, but looking over the values of things, it seems like it would give a minor buff without pushing too far, at least in this point of the game. As long as all these hp% heals aren't effected by heal bonus, like how Regen used to be before they revamped it. If they are I'd have to say half the percentages.
I like these changes but I still feel they're not what's holding the class back.

First and foremost it's the big nerf on totem. LOS, it took care of every LOS problem dolls could cause for your group.

After that it's the doll cost, 6ap for an ultra powerful? weaker than the 4ap greedy. maddoll and lethargic should cost like 2ap or 3ap, they're weak, and only remove one point.

the cost for dolls is what makes sadida really limited, first turn they basically do nothing.
There are other issues that with small changes could make Sadida better like for example simple rebalance of Explodoll to deal/heal 2x more then it currently is.

I don't think ankama will give us HP based heal again - i'd love that as like you said it would work well with my HP increase for the sake of doll's health. However "Ankama knows better" and they wanted to remove any sort of HP based damages/heals from Sadida, sadly. I would love if they would give this back to us.

Now i don't think i want vaporize to still be used in pve and waste spell exp if it's effect won't change as we level it (the heal effect). Then again that effect should be on spell with 100% effectiveness even at early levels - wich leads to the need of speciality that work this way. I had suggestion before to make Doll (1st active speciality) to turn doll to seed and Dolly Sacrifice (2nd speciality) to remove doll from field and heal Sadida. That will obviously require Doll to not cost WP, wich i also think should be changed as i don't want to be limited to 6 dolls.

I also think dolly sacrifice should cost 0AP.

Now i am not sure about reduced heal you mention... it confuses me a bit, so i won't mention it here.

Tree - i'd love if it would heal based on HP. I'd love if it would be also based on Sadida AP's too as it would allow for better heal if we cast it at start of turn. Now i am afraid it would make water heals useless especially in short fight such as pvp.
All the self-healing is unneeded. Why do we need so many self-heal abilities? And we definitely don’t need hp builds since it prevents us from focusing on what dolls need more. Mastery.

Why not just replace the Self-heal from Sacrifice with something actually useful, like for summoning our next doll?

Used dolly sacrifice? Your next spell should be cheaper so we don’t spend too much ap on them. We already spend at least 4 AP making one.

And Lone sadi should switch between mastery and cmc damage depending on if dolls are in play, so we can still stack Lone Sadi even when summoning.

There is so much that needs to be done with this class, but we DON’T need more self-heal.
GreenEmerald|2013-12-13 17:13:32
And Lone sadi should switch between mastery and cmc damage depending on if dolls are in play, so we can still stack Lone Sadi even when summoning.

The best single suggestion for sadida EVER (sorry Kikuihimonji, but it can't be denied smile.
Logic contained in this sentence probably made half on Ankama's staff faint from brain overload (if they ever read it, that is).
GreenEmerald|2013-12-13 17:13:32All the self-healing is unneeded. Why do we need so many self-heal abilities? And we definitely don’t need hp builds since it prevents us from focusing on what dolls need more. Mastery.

Why not just replace the Self-heal from Sacrifice with something actually useful, like for summoning our next doll?

Used dolly sacrifice? Your next spell should be cheaper so we don’t spend too much ap on them. We already spend at least 4 AP making one.

And Lone sadi should switch between mastery and cmc damage depending on if dolls are in play, so we can still stack Lone Sadi even when summoning.

There is so much that needs to be done with this class, but we DON’T need more self-heal.
I think it depends on people's build and preferences. I for myself would rather make dolls with more HP because every doll benefit from that, unlike mastery that affect only greedy, inflatable and ultrapowerful with 60% of effectiveness for the last one.

I was HP build before revamp and i was damn good at that, especially because Explodoll and dolly sacrifice values were based on HP too. This made me a support class who can deal nice dmg from explosions of dolls or heal self up in need by sacrificing dolls.

I don't know why they made Mudoll a self healing spell though. Dolly Sacrifice was good enough. The only issue with mudoll was that it was healing allies ONLY VIA VOODOLL, and we were limited to 1 voodoll. Making mudoll a spell that can heal allies was nice, but still not needed as we got healing dolls. I don't think we need many self healing spells but dolly sacrifice should be the one that heals. "We sacrifice doll's health and we are absorbing it" - that sound cool unlike "we kill doll and we get more power from that" wich just sound awkward to me and would lead to the gamplay where you keep spaming the dolls to be summoned and then keep sacrificing them every turn - something that people would like to avoid.

I for once want to be able to have my little army of dolls instead of summoning, sacrificng for ap, summoning, sacrificng for ap... seriously i would grow tired of that. Not to mention timer will be the issue.

Summoning dolls itself should be cheap in the first place. Its stupid idea that we have to make doll in order to be able to make next doll cheaper if we remove the first doll... seriously...? What gives?

I also don't see a reason why lone Sadida should swap from dmg% to cmc%. My greedy doll have 100% of my mastery and that would change nothing to this doll. However the change to cmc will make ultrapowerful even more powereful comparing to the greedy - as if it wasn't too good already - i wouldn't like that change. The change from mastery to cmc% would also make Sadida poison spells weaker out of a sudden. That i wouldnt' want to see either. I was thinking to be able to make brambly armors as effective with dolls as it is without dolls but then again changing dmg% to cmc% will make it impossible. You are simply asking for something similar to permanent nettle dmg boost without the mp bonus and boost of 50% to dolls.

I think the only issue why they are not making lone sadida work with dolls is because the nettle state give +100% dmg more. Rust can even boost it further more and suddenly you can have dolls with more dmg% then you with lone sadida (huh!?). The issue is that nettle either consume 1 ap per doll or is random and rust need dolls to be targeted and cost 5AP itself for low dmg, wich make sadida too weak.

If i were to keep lone sadida and swap its effect for something else then i would ask for resist bonus - because thats what i need the most when i want to use dolls - protect myself from getting damages (the doll may make enemy not reach me or might lock it, reduce mp, block los, etc). Ressit bonus while dolls are summoned would be better - and cooler if the dolls would have resistance of sadida, because that would in same time increase ressist for every doll.

I did many pvpes and the dmg of dolls wasnt the issue. The issue was high cost to summon them right away in the first few turns and the lack of my own dmg% to heal self up or shield myself. Cmc% instead of dmg% won't solve anything. We already have nettle like that (though random) and i doubt these 50% dmg would make a difference between victory and failure for the sadida if the enemy hit 2x harder already.

The issue in pvp is also when you want to change doll or resummon it in different place- but the issue is not the cost this time (well not only) but more likely the timer. As an example i wanted to cover myself in map corner with 2 dolls placed next to me in order for sacrier who used cage of blood on me to not teleport to me. However i had already all dolls summoned and sacrificng 2 of them and running to the corner took me so much time that i had only managed to place 1 seed next to me so my tactic failed - all because of timer. I had spare AP's left - many of them - and i wasn;t even able to use them all. So getting cheaper cost to summoning dolls wont solve anything to me. Animation need to be faster and i'd rather get higher heal while i sacrifice them so that at least i will recover some HP while repositioning dolls. The heal received during that pvp from sacrificing dolls was too low. Maybe with more AP's as refund from sacrifcing i could cast mudoll on myself - but mind the timer - why make me cast 1 more spell to heal myself when i could get heal right away and save the time?
semcorda|2013-12-13 17:32:13
GreenEmerald|2013-12-13 17:13:32
And Lone sadi should switch between mastery and cmc damage depending on if dolls are in play, so we can still stack Lone Sadi even when summoning.

The best single suggestion for sadida EVER (sorry Kikuihimonji, but it can't be denied smile.
Logic contained in this sentence probably made half on Ankama's staff faint from brain overload (if they ever read it, that is).
o.o wow that really is a great idea. nice emerald!

but that will only affect 2 dolls out of 6..
so it will have to be +cmc damage, -hypermovement/hyperaction, and +resists or +lock to blocker dolls
Hey everyone, sorry I haven't been responding to this thread, I've been away from my computer all day. (I know, right?)

Anyway, I know that these issues aren't what's causing the biggest issues with the way the current Sadida is set up, but I wanted to suggest some smaller tweaks to try to improve on it without much extra work. The mechanics I've mentioned all exist, now or in the past, and it'd just be a matter of paperclipping them onto the Sadida's abilities.

I do like the idea of Lone Sadida converting to CMC damage, but as Neneko put it, that's only a booster to 2 of 6 dolls. It's also a bit of a big change to ask for things like CMC Resistance, CMC lock, etc. as I don't recall these features existing already.

The objective of the thread is to try to band-aid as much as possible with as little work as possible so that it has a chance of being slipped in, kind of like the patches Enis and Rogues have been receiving since their revamps, if that makes sense. So apologies in advance if I don't really talk about the deeper issues at the root of the class (pun absolutely intended).
One of the main reasons Ankama got rid of %hp based heals/damage was because it made it something where you have a heal or damage that didn't require the power of the player in order to be powerful. With the way resistances work, you couldnt defend against an attack strictly based on percentage of hp, it would have its base damage of that percentage and deal it 100%. And %hp heals would not really reward a character for having high damage and reward them for hp, it would be really anti-Brambly Armor.

I think the only way %hp based spells will ever exist again is if the base damage of the spell/effect is based of a percentage of the max hp, and then powered up using %damage.
Similarly to what I stated on Explodoll on my earlier post, and as another example, Hudski's proposed Tree heal, modify the % to effect those who have like, let's say, +300% damage, and that means having 1% max hp base on the MP heal, and 0.5% max hp base on the AP heal, but having those bases increased by having more damage. At +300% you reach what Hudski proposed, but you can increase it farther with more damage. This also provides an area of max profit, since this system would have diminishing returns towards those who were fully hp built or fully damage built, and be most rewarding to those who find a good middle ground between damage and hp.
A simply fix could be to make Lone Sadida stack as Blazing Calygraphy of Eniripsa, with the difference that it apply every turn instead of when monster is killed. The mechanic exist already.

That or they could make Sadida get dmg% from Control in a passive similar to Initiatior of Rogue - so from very beggining of the fight it would apply. The mechanic exist already.

I was suggesting in other bigger topics that spells such as explodoll or dolly sacrifice should be based on HP% but still increase with chromatic mechanic. The numbers of HP were low (~2%) and i found that balanced. However someone has denied this saying that it would not scale properly as the scaling with level is (wich i didn't agree to, but since someone didn't liked it and it would be something Ankama haven't done before, i stopped suggesting this).

In situations like this i would like to be able to make a poll on forum...

Personaly i like the concept of "HP and dmg%" based skills more then "pure HP" or "level and damage" based. I know the issue with Brambly Armor not working as coagulation (wich is based on HP) as its based on sadida mastery instery (sadly), though it could be changed obviously but i see no high requests for that (and it could take some time before Ankama would make new mechanic for brambly armor), so better leave brambly armor as it is now... Still if there will be values in Sadida specialities based on both HP% and masteries of Sadida then it would be still beneficial to stack HP (for the sake of not only dolls HP) while allowing dmg dealers to also have this damage more effective. It would require to find the middle ground as you said, but basically what i like the most is that it would allow dmg dealing Sadidas to remain dmg dealing ones, while it will also open an alternative build posibility to be more HP based and therefore have more durable dolls too (though dolls would deal less dmg then).

p.s. I still don't like the idea to make mastery from lone Sadida turn to cmc%. This only allow you maybe to make a doll in need and not loose lone Sadida stack so that once you remove that doll you will suddenly be able to make effective brambly shields again - but this may work with 1 or 2 dolls only that you will to remove. It won't work effectively with 6 dolls summoned (or more if they make it possible one day) due to whole effort and time consumed to remove all of these dolls (not to mention you might want to keep some dolls on the field for the sake of keeping one monster away from the team). If these are blockers then i won't benefit from this change at all. While i'd like to be able to shield my dolls with as effective brambly armor as i can do on allies now with lone Sadida maxed (wich won't be possible with the dmg% transformation to cmc%).
Okay, one thing I want to make clear, Brambly Armor is the best 'Coag' in the game at the moment due to the fact that it is based off of %damage, and I dont think it needs a change, personally. I really don't wanna read "based of sadida mastery instery (sadly)" on a system that not only makes the sadida stand out but also makes them the best in that style.

Ofc, as you know, the key is baby steps. There are ideas for 5 spells provided by Hudski at the moment, and we are adding our opinions to see what would work best to make a system that makes the spells valuable without carrying Sadidas beyond all other classes while still rewarding them for a more fluent game style that overall fits with the idea of Doll Sadidas. Tree might be a goner with %hp heals since the basis of Tree is to be used with Lone Sadida and not with Dolls, But these are little things with a lot of thought put behind them by Hudski. I can understand he knows a lot about balance, most of what I said was modifications based on meeting along his values, but in different manners, or else slightly changing the effect to add variety.

But first and foremost, let's just regard the 5 spells Hudski has mentioned, and see if we can find a path that fits well with those 5 that we can, probably impossible to completely agree on, bu mostly agree on. You can comment about my opinion on brambly armor if you want to after this, but no more after that as I want us to stick to the topic as much as possible, these 5 spells Hudski has mentioned.

If we can actually find a way to make us all agree on these spells, that's enough of a miracle that it might just make Ankama do something about it.
The Tree was never based on something like Lone Sadida before the patch. The Lone Sadida is new addition to the class wich just seem to work well with Tree. However the Tree itself used to nettle dolls or had WP cost while Sadida had WP refund from initiative bonus. In short: Tree was useful with dolls before the revamp and i'd like to use it like that.

Therefore i don't mind if Tree will heal as Hudski suggested. What;'s more since Tree does not affect anyone's resistance i don't think it ever need chromatic mechanic to begind with. I remember the days when Tree was healing 20% of Sadida's max HP and i liked the Tree like that. Making it based on the amount of MP (and maybe AP too) but to make it work with HP% rather then chromatic dmg would be "me gusta". Its spell that should protect us AND heal us, so i think it should work more for the tank build rather then dmg dealer build. It's weird that in order to be good defensively Sadida need high earth dmg % and waste all AP's on brambly shields. Well i don't mind Brambly Armor mechanics as they are currently since they are not specialities but elemental spells and therefore should be based on that element. The Tree on the other hand is not elemental spell. I understand the concert to make explodoll deal chromatic dmg in order to make it affected by enemies resistances, but self healing spell like Tree does not need such mechanic. Thats why i can give +1 to Hudski's idea for Tree (in terms of healing). However he does not mention anything about resistance, dmg reduction or invulnerability that Tree spell give/should give. Its just part of the change that should be/could be implemented.

I always said in my previous suggestions that we need speciality that will allow us to control dolls (or make them controled by default - for me either will do). And i was also suggesting sic'em more to do that. I am however unsure about sudden control that would appear when we get damaged and trigger green guard. I wouldn't propably mind that but some people may find themself consufed when they end turn and they forgot that their dolls were nettled and before they notice that none of their allies move it might waste some time from the doll. It might make the fight suddenly longer and we all know every second matter. Though it will be problem of the noobs who will not focus on fight. I could deal with such change. I would add to that that Nettle state should make dolls with 100% crit rate (if nettle lvl 10) and when we crit on seed then doll should appear with the nettle level 10. The nettle that we have now is giving 50% bonus to AP/MP removal for dolls and their crit effect is exactly the same. The problem is that dolls do not crit at all and trying to make one crit with the help of glyph or ecaflip's fleaches would be not worth the effort. The crit dmg might make greedy deal 45 base dmg instead of 30, meanwhile current nettle give 100% water dmg to greedy, wich won't help if the resistance still won't be broken with that bonus. If Lone Sadida would work togather with dolls, then we would not need the dmg% boost from nettle anyway and it would be appreaciated if nettle would give dolls crits. The Green guard effect could make dolls with +2Nettle at all levels, wich would give dolls 20% crit rate per trigger - something that i would like to see with green guard is that multiple triggering should improve the effect gained. Following the idea stated here by Hudski dolls could be under control even with nettle level 1.

I also agree that dolly sacrifice should cost 0AP to cast (lvl 9). I also think it should not cost more then 2AP when level 0, so that it can be still used effectively if not leveled.

However i dont think vaporize should give Sadida health based on hp %. If anything it could work as Hudski suggest but would need to heal Sadida based on the Vaporize spell level.

I also think that the heal from each doll should be the same. Let's say i want to replace madoll for blocker doll - now why should i use madoll in the first place if the heal from it would be lower? That something that would prevent me from using any doll other then blocker, just to make sure that i would get max possible heal when i sacrifice it. Therefore i think each doll should have the same cost, wich should be the cost of the seed as well (it can be done with AP/MP refund for Sadida when it cast single target spells on seeds) and then the Vaporize would be fine to work as "steal HP from doll" spell, wich KO the doll in process and would make vaporize worth leveling for that heal.

Now i don't like the -2% heal from dolly sarifice and some weird -1AP in same time for unknown reason. I don't think i understand it well though. So far i don't like this. If it just turn doll to seed then it shouldn't heal. Also it would make air and earth sadidas not need to use vaporize spell most of the time, and it would make water sadida feel like not leveling dolly sacrifice. This is again something that i wouldn't like.

I already don't like the fact that specialities can heal Sadida with chromatic dmg as it makes healing theme of water branch pointless for the sadida itself. But thats another issue.

I also don't like the attitude that one speciality would not be compatible with the other (such as dolly sacrifice not compatible with lone sadida that Hudski mention). Seriously, what gives? Make them all compatible with each other so that i can decide on my own wich spells i want to level and benefit from them effectively no matter wich ones i choose. This is something that i currently dislike with lone sadida as it is now, and i'd like to see this changed. Just look at Initiator spell of Rogue - it used to give dmg% only to air branch but after revamp of Rogue it gives dmg% to every element, wich makes it work well with bombs as well, despite the fact that bombs got their own dmg boost form other passive.

What i am trying to say is that Ankama's goal (and our too) should be to make each speciality useful. They should remove/replace/revamp the specialities that affect only 1 element branch (such as in case of Ecaflip) or add to them something that would benefit remaining elements. In case of Sadida - each speciality should work well with one another, just like it used to before the revamp. Why dividing sadida's specialities in half? Why dividing Sadida from within? And one more question: why we have specialities that work only with 1 doll (voodoll), while its just 1 type of doll we can summon? Thats like making 1 speciality for cra that work only with 1 element of beacon! Its bad design. We should fix that. I mean Ankama should , but you got the point.
Respond to this thread