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I'm still of the opinion that the median of about 12-13ish damage per AP spend is a pretty decent balance. Anything above or below that comes from reasons secondary to damage, like range, added effects, ect.

Did I seriously read the TB damage right? Is the base 16 at level 100 for 1 AP? Wakfu Wikia says 9, and I don't have room to make a Xelor to confirm this. If it indeed does 16 damage, that is hillariously OP, and should be reduced by 3 or 4. 3, because TB has the most retarded range I've seen in a long time (Fecastopheles armor aside), or 4, because the fact that it can ALWAYS be used is a bit too much. And Iop's Flurry uses 1 AP for 12 (Again, according to Wakfu Wikia, our lovely outdated Database), which would put them on roughly the same level. Only issue I see with that, is the fact that Flurry indeed only uses 1 AP - It's significantly harder to use 1 skill 8 times, than it is to, effectively, use 8 skills at once. That only justifies a higher, if only slightly so, damage, almost making me push the coin off the table here, and say it should be reduced to 11 damage per AP, at most.

I see the issue with the combo here, but I'm still not sure how to see it properly. After all, combo's is what makes the game fun. I'd rather see a Xelor buff up using his Dail, and blow me to tiny bits with 1 move, rather than watch an Iop hit me a tons of times in 1 round, dealing an increasing amounts of damage, ending up killing me anyway. Authority is stupidly powerful in this regard, because it constitutes a pretty much permanent 100 % damage increase, which considering how must high levels I've seen are currently sitting at just below 300 %, is pretty good. Remember, this isn't a combo, something that requires "setting up" or spending AP or Wakfu points to achieve - This is a passive bonus they get for using their damage spells, which, as an Air Iop, pretty much means spamming at least 4 skills per turn, each with a 45 % chance of adding 20 % damage. Each.

I'm not defending Xelors here. I'm just saying that there are classes who are MUCH worse at being ridiculously OP that Xelors, and not only Cras (Which have already been pointed out a million times in this topic). But Fire Xelors DO need some adjustment. Just don't nerf Water Xelors, they aren't exactly the top of the bracket as it is.

I'm actually a bit curious as to who are complaining about Xelors in general. As an Osamodas, I'm not too certain about the issue with this, as Xelors rarely get a shot at me, specifcally, anyway. Sure, my poor summon just got wiped clean from the face of the earth, but guess what? SUMMON+WHIP+WASTED DAIL=MY TROLLFACE

I have more than 50 of my main summon, so I have far more trollfaces than you have Wakfu-points anyway. But that's what counters are - You can't complain about having weaknesses. I'm contend with Osamodas' weakness being a monster AI so stupid that even the worst retards in the world would probably shake their heads at the sheer stupidity these creatures possess. Fire Xelors, like most other ranged classes, suffer from a minimum range, and, daresay, a better way of avoiding the lockzone. Cras got, what, 4 different skills to get away from a lock? And a Xelor has... the dail? Somethings off here...

Which actually makes me say that Xelors, fire specifically, but water does too, doesn't need a nerf - It needs balancing. Some areas are incredibly overpowered, where others are far too weak compared to others. That may seem like "balancing", but it's not. Anything with a minimum range needs something to create that distance, otherwise it can easily turn into a crippling weakness over the course of a long fight, especially at high levels. Note the word "create", not just stay at range. It's a fine balance, and one that easily crosses into being either utterly useless, or outright OP, which is why I assume Cras are having the time of their life right now with Beacon Sneaking.

I use this quotation as an example. All of you seem to say that timekeeper is weak skill because it just allows to do 2 turns dmg in one, delayed turn.
LOL, have you ever used this skill? Haven't any of you noticed that each stored ap gives bonus dmg when used later? If I remember correctly, max TK makes 1 ap to be stored along with 10% bonus dmg, so 6 ap is 60% more damage when used. This is what makes fire xelor so OP. Not only has probably the most damage/cost efficient, non-iop spell in game, but also has possibility to use it with damage increasing timekeeper. Add to this the fact that after he stepped down from dial after timekeeper he can escape any lock by casting another dial, just to get perfect range to use stored aps to t.burn, and you will see why fire xel needs nerf.
T.burn at the beginnig, long ago in beta was meant to be "leftover AP" spell. Most efficient way to attack as fire xel in beta was parching(old version of aging, cost 2mp)>hand>t.burn. It still was useable after parching changed to aging, but only for >6ap builds. I know what I'm saying, I reached 100lvl this way. If you say I had not efficient build then know that I've never, ever, seen in beta fire xelor spamming t.burn. Why? It was balanced spell back then. Only time it was a bit op was when it had constant -30ini(no matter how much ap spent). Then parching allowed to deal near 100 dmg with 1ap t.burn.


This post has been edited by semcorda - April 18, 2012, 18:28:16.

As far as I know, the dmg bonus doesn't stack. 1 AP or 6 AP is still going to be 10% its not going to be 10% per AP.

and even if you argue that it can be used individually, taking the number 6 as an example. 6 x 1AP is not the same as 6AP x 1 = 60%

and no, not really the dmg is still proportionate to other classes.


This post has been edited by Kurochikun - April 18, 2012, 20:16:05.

Every TK cast stores 1 ap and 10% damage and some ini
so if you use TK 6 times you get 6 ap and 60% damage once dial is destroyed

Stopped reading at the bolded part.

60 % bonus elemental damage is OP? Right. because 40 % passive bonus damage to Iops, + 100 % additional bonus damage from Power, and 50 % from Preparation is totally cool.

This isn't 40 % of your total damage. It's 40 % of the base damage on the spell, as always (Still don't get why people assume otherwise. Dofus worked the same way, as does pretty much anything in this game.)

I am not disagreeing that Xelors might be a bit too powered right now. But Dial+Timekeeper isn't the reason. It was when Chance Xelors still had the lovely infinite AP attack that could be spammed with abandon, only limited by the turn time, thus easily dealing 5-digit numbers of damage in 1 turn - Not anymore. It still was when timekeeper granted 2 ap per ap spend - Not so anymore. It's almost underpowered tbh. It's only strong because the spells it powers is too strong.

Don't nerf Dial+Timekeeper because of the imbalanced spells. That would be beyond stupid. Timekeeper is almost too WEAK right now, because of the small boost it grants. I'd take a passive +40 % damage boost any day, to a once per second turn +60 % damage boost.

Nerf T.Burn. Don't ruin the class.

err.. xelor is really op... look, hyu(lv100 xelor) can do 1250 dmg normally on burn, xelor has a passive that gives him 48 iniciative than... and its normal lv100 xelor hav 8ap or more... sorry bad grammar

so, on the first turn, u do 1250 dmg ( WITH NO ROLLBACK ) :}

I'm not sure about the math here.

Burn does 16 damage per AP at level 100. With 8 AP, that means it does 128 base damage before any damage% is factored into it. To do 1250 damage with an attack that does 128 base damage, they have to have about +875% fire damage.

And with that much damage, anyone is going to hit insanely hard with almost anything. (Granted, 16 damage per AP is rather high, but it's not the highest in the game. An Earth Iop with the same bonus to Earth damage can hit for around 1350 damage with two uses of Shaker, and an Air Sadida can hit for around 1450 damage with four casts of Woodland Stench, and those are both class starting spells. Even a Fire Sram - generally considered to be one of the weakest classes currently - with those damage buffs can hit for nearly 1100 damage with a Cold Blood/Torment combo or two casts of Bled Dry, and that's not including bonus damage from Torment or Hemorrhage).

So is Burn powerful? Yes. No doubt. Is it overpowered? ... you still have to convince me.

^Exactly.

16 damage per AP is pretty damn high compared to pretty much everyone else. (Not counting OP classes)

But that is Temporal Burn. Nerfing Dial or Timekeeper because of another spell, would be outright ridiculous.

Fire Xelors is a burst class. I loved Xelors in Dofus, but not so much in Wakfu. Water isn't really that strong, and Hyperaction makes them pretty useless a short while into the fight. Fire has 2 spells, 1 that is spammed in single target, and another that is spammed in multi-target situations. I know other classes has that same situation (In some cases only 1 spell no matter what situation, IE: Air Cras.), but that doesn't make it any less sad. Why have 5 spells if we aren't going to use them anyway? At least Dofus mostly gave us spells that we actually used (Or at least until weapons completely overtook them).

Yeah, let me rephrase. It's definitely more powerful than it probably "needs" to be, but what I'm not sure of is whether it's the game-breaker everyone's making it out to be.

I can see, for example, lowering it to 13 damage per AP to keep it in line with other damage-only spells. (Yeah, it does do some Init-removal, but that's a relatively minor effect)

I'm just saying that, if a Xelor could hypothetically do 1250 damage a turn with it as it is now, they can still do 1015 damage a turn with the spell at 13 d/AP with the same setup, which is still enough to kill most characters in one or two rounds.

And, as I said in this and other recent topics, most if not all classes have at least one spell that's way above the 12-13 d/AP average, and some have several, so it's tough to judge exactly what is "overpowered". If Xelor's above-average spell needs to be hammered down, then so should those of other classes meant mainly for support and/or indirect combat - Eniripsa, Sadida, Enutrof (which has three spells in that range), etc.

I do agree, however, that what definitely doesn't need to be done is a nerf to the Xelor class as a whole.

Woot what? 16 per AP is way too op. It should be 9-10 per AP. It should be a leftover spell not a main source of damage. The fact that other classes are still op doesn't mean nerf is not needed. Support role? Xelor is support too - it give ap to allies and reduce ap/ini to enemies. Even if its a damage dealer class then still base damage should be somehow equal to all classes. Don't tell me that sadida dmg need nerf as it's already painfully low. 5AP 1 MP cost for 38 base dmg - for you it's balance? Xelor can do that with almost 2 ap cost. Sadida don't have any passive bonud to dmg. Only with totem and thats still 40% as highest if 2 specialities are maxed. Xelor got 50% dmg bonus on dial - only 1 speciality maxed, and with TK it goes even higher. What's more sadida need to target enemy in line to make totem whiel xelor can cast dial almost anywhere, anytime - knowing it has first turn with its passive 48 ini. It will own everybody. Xelor need change to be balanced. Damage dealers have passive dmg bonuses, summoners got damage bonus in form of summons. If you want tactic, balance, fun in pvp then balance is needed. Making 1 class stronger wth base dmg is not balancing anything. Iop is op too. It needs nerf as well knowing how much dmg boosts it receive but don't tell me excuses like: one class is so powerfull so xelor need to be so powerfull too. It's wrong way of thinking - will lead us to no-where. 1 hit KO'ing other's in pvp (or 2-, 3-turn KO'ing) is not an option. It shoudl be avoided. Maybe it's lack of players HP/resistance that has to be improved instead? Maybe. But the fact is that xelor as it is now is way too op.

What it has to do is stop crying because of Nerf,
I've seen Hyu beating three high level players taking 1800 each one easily.
I dont like to complain about "OP OP OP mimimi OP", but really was absurd

Srams were not close to such damage, even with Double combo, they had good mobility and accumulated a lot of damage too, perfect for tatics. And what they did?! MasterStabber with half the power, if you teleport behind the opponent purchases (which is the fighting style of the SRAM) instead of you having more damage as it should be you lose half, and again use the other half. Not to mention that the clone does not explode anymore.

The Srams had to accept and be satisfied, Agi Cra will be nerfed too, then allow the Xelor be nerfed without crying and explaining.

What you should do now is already thinking to adapt to the new nerf after all that here is a strategy game, then be a tactician. The good player has to adapt to bad situations, and not complain if it gets worse a little bit o//

Srams will survive, Int Xelors Too, Agi Cras too, but being balanced for no one have than to complain

What you guys forget about is that Xelor ALWAYS starts first. He always has that 1 extra turn to do more damage or rape your AP before you even move. Complaining about Air Cra? Ok, I'll be a good guy and make you a guide, how to beat Air Cra on Xelor

Fire Xelor:
1) Summon Dial in a spot, where you can cover most of the Beacon Sneakin escape possibilities. Cra won't outrun Dial with just Beacon Sneakin and 0MP.
2) Stack Dial or cast Temporal Burn on Cra right away
3) Cra does some damage to you, assuming you didn't take Brain hit or 3xhead hit + crit, you're still alive
4) Temporal Burn on Cra
GG


Water Xelor
1) Summon Dial, etc.
2) Mash buttons to leave Cra with 0ap and low HP
3) Cra runs away
4) Go there and kill her.
GG


I'm Air Cra player. I can easily win almost any 1v1, 1v2 or even 1v3 if the map is good.
Except 1 thing - I can't beat Xelor. You could say "Oh, maybe Xelor hard counters Cra". Nope, he also beats the other classes.
I know my Air Cra is OP and I totally accept the nerfs. But it's just funny to me, when some Xelors still think they play balanced class.

I just logged on, to make a screenshot story for you. My ultra OP air Cra vs balanced water Xelor:

Of course he's first and leaves me with no AP:


I try to run away and hide with Beacon Sneakin, but he's got super mobility with Dial and still got me:


But this time I have 5AP! I'm lucky with crits, so I do shiny 500 damage to him and again try to run away. But he summons another Dial, easily gets me and and still has enough AP tu use 4AP weapon twice, because it's Xelor:



GG, water Xelor balanced, kills "the most OP char in game" with 0 problems.

hmm plz tell me how xelor is goin to kill sram if he doesnt kill it on turn one? and to kill on turn one u need either rollback or crit. and plz do not forget - to hit that good xelor must put points to +1AP. thats 150 pts. and sram can put those to ini - +75 ini if im not mistaken. so whos gonna move first?

I would say Air Rogues will have chances against Xelors, because of their Initiative and MP/WP costs. But they probably won't have enough mobility to catch Xelor on Dial.

See and here the whole argument falls to pieces (yes, that is your first sentence). Try PvP, see how it is always over in turn 2 because of such damage values that are totally ok in your books and then reconsider. If they nerfed all damage by 50% we would get somewhere.

@Suspic: Why would he need an AP? He doesn't. Srams are just an annoying PvP class btw but in no way really good.

@Krowa: Double sneak is the recipe vs water Xelors. I beat thema few times now like this. Hard to pull off within 30 seconds but possible.

I don't know, where I could possibly run with double sneak. He pretty much covered all that small 1v1 map with Dial.


This post has been edited by krowakot - April 26, 2012, 15:30:12.

Push him from dial and run. ^^ Also play with few beacons - you can place them on hour cells.

Push him out of dial?
At my first turn I had 0ap - no pushing.
At my second turn he wasn't even on Dial.
At my third turn... oh wait, I was dead already.

No, the fact is that one attack of a Xelor is overpowered (in the sense that it does above-average damage per AP), not the class as a whole. I also never said that Xelor wasn't a support class. I don't know how you got that out of what I said, since I explicitly compared them to other support classes. So let me expand on what I said about other Support classes.

The Sadida attack I'm talking about wasn't Gust, it's Woodland Stench, their Air branch starting spell, which at level 100 does 37 base damage for 2 AP and 1 MP - that's 18.5 damage per AP. (The rest of their spells are below-average, however)

Similarly, Enutrofs have Hot Magma and Refinement, which max out at 17 and 17.83 damage per AP respectively, as well as Tax, which when used on a Broke enemy, does 17.6 damage per AP (and still does 13.4 damage on a non-Broke enemy, which is towards the high end of "average")

Fecas, primarily a defensive support class intended to have limited direct offensive capability, have Fecammer (47 damage per AP, though it does also also cost 2 MP per cast, which limits it somewhat), Defensive Orb (18 damage per AP, and only 1 MP cost), and Fecastopholes (26 damage per AP), and weaker but still above-average Feca Staff (15.4 damage per AP), Crashing Wave (14.8 damage per AP), and Steam (14 damage per AP).

Even Eniripsas, theoretically the least-offensive class in the game, have Coney Mark - 15 damage per AP. (Not quite as much as Temporal Burn, but still above the 12-13 d/AP average).

So if Xelor's one above-average spell needs to be nerfed because it makes them too powerful for a support class, then so do all those other above-average-for-a-support-class spells I just listed. (And note that I just listed support classes, not classes designed with a more offensive style in mind, like Iops, Cras, Sacriers, Pandawas, and Srams, all of which also have their own way-above-average attacks - yes, even Srams)

Otherwise, the second after the Xelor (hypothetically) gets nerfed, people just move onto the next Overpowered Flavor-Of-The-Month build.



If you cut all damage by 50%, that would essentially make all the monsters twice as powerful (since it would take you twice as long to kill them, during which time they'll get twice as many attacks as they would now), so that "somewhere" we get to would be a game where every monster slaughters you long before you get to high level.

Two-turn PvP? Sounds good to me. Quick and brutal, like a gunfight, not drawn out for an hour like a WWF wrestling match.


So, for those paying attention, my point is: Xelors as a whole do not need to be nerfed. At most, one Xelor spell needs to be nerfed (and if that one spell gets nerfed, then other above-average attack spells on support classes likewise need to be nerfed), but not the entire class.


This post has been edited by Schmendrick - April 27, 2012, 00:22:27.

They'll change Temporal burn anyway, aren't they?

@schmendrick, I think damage/AP ratio isn't everything, since MP and range also come in considered
Woodland Stench limited your movement, for the example.

@krowakot, you're 10 lv below her, the result might be different with more lvl, no?