Forum

Making Wakfu more social.
I've been playing this game for a few days, and I'm already sick of it.
I wanted to give my impression of the game, and a few suggestion as to make the game more social, both of which will likely fall on deaf ears.

Normally I wouldn't even touch a game like this with a 12ft barge pole, but I was bored out of my skull, so there.




The ascetic is fairly good, it's creative and nice to look at. Gueuzav did a good job here.
Combat SRPG is tactical and thought provoking, and is a nice throwback to games like Disgaea.

Overall, the game is a complete piece of crap. It clones the standard fair MMO completely, will little more then a cheap paintjob and frills added on top.
And while you may have copied what works for MMO's by doing this, you also copy all of the same mistakes and flaws, which are painfully transparent if you've ever played an MMO before.

Not only is it painfully dull and repetitive, but worse of all it's incredibly anti-social as well.


It's usage of levels, classes mechanics, and EXP distribution promotes behavior that isolate players, as dissuades group play and interaction.
Long term this winds up crippling communal activity and cohesion, going against the central premise of an MMO. Player interaction.

While it has potential, like many of it's ilk, it's far too set in it's outdated, and completely wrong headed ideas. Which in this over saturated industry, is like a dog-shit bullet right between the eyes.




I have two main suggestions, and a couple of minor ones.
Globalize EXP, and ad-hoc combat.


Global EXP
The current system of 'local' EXP, is where each player only ever get EXP if they themselves engage in combat (and to an extent, quests).
Global EXP is where everyone in the vicinity gains 'EQUAL' EXP for combat, regardless whether he or she actually engages in it.

Say I kill a mob, and it's worth 50EXP, under this system anyone nearby, even if they are not in my party, even if they are not participating in my battle, also gain that same 50EXP that I do.
If there happen to be 10 people nearby, they all get that same 50EXP each.

The practical effect from this is that it causes players that otherwise would not interact with each other to begin to gravitated together and naturally group up, but without any of the usual associated hassles or drawbacks. Grouping, even into large raid size groups, becomes almost effortless at this point.
Ala, Realm of the Mad God.

Although some limitations may be considered to prevent high level players from power leveling low level players.

This could also be extended to apply to crafting skills as well.


Ad-hoc Combat
Currently as I understand it, once combat initiates with whatever players that are there, no other players can also participate during battle.
Ad-hoc is where at any point during combat, any other player can engage in the same fight, in order to help.

Coupled with the global EXP, there would be no drawback to getting more help on any one battle, as everyone would benefit. This leads to greater philanthropy and social cohesion.

This could also be expedited with the citizen point system. Where as higher citizen points acts as a EXP multiplier when ad-hoc battles occur, as well as diminishing returns with negative citizen points.
Of coarse a system should be put in place to penalize grefiers that jump into ad-hoc battles, just to kill other players. A potential drawback.




The point of these suggestions is to make basic social interaction and gameplay between players simple and easy, bordering on effortless. Where grouping into large 20 or 30 man/woman groups is as simple as just showing up and following, and subsequently far more frequent.

Making your MMO more social is the single most important thing you can do for your game.
Because without a thriving community, your completely dead in the water.


Whether you heed my suggestions or not, I really couldn't give a fuck. I had no intention of playing this game for any real length of time anyway, I'm just passing time while I wait for an actual social MMO.
That would be Guild Wars 2 btw.


Kindly (or not so kindly, depending on you view)

~Yoh

Global Exp:

Absolutely not. In RotMG at least you have to do something, because otherwise you'll just die, as the monsters are agressive.

There's no point in giving free exp for players that didn't contribute to the battle.

Ad-hoc:

If I want to level alone, or with a certain number of people, just let me do it.
If others want to join a battle, let them do it before it starts, so people wouldn't start messing around in the middle of other's battle.


This post has been edited by [Knonaut] - February 27, 2012, 19:46:25.

Wow, seriously harsh there.

Battles require someone to hit something at least once, or no experience gets awarded. That isn't a bad system at all.

Wouldn't you say the lack of singled-out level 1 creatures is a dead giveaway that you need a group?

So your argument against this is 'nuh-ah' and 'I don't want to do anything for anyone, because I'm anti-social'.

Duly noted.



It's not a bad system, if you're playing a single player game.
But treating other players if they simple don't exist doesn't exactly promote social play.

I'll need you to clarify you last point as it doesn't make any sense to me.

"Player A wants to join the battle." "Yes/No"

About the Global exp:

Players should earn a % of the exp depending on their level, and to avoid higher levels powerleveling low levels, a level restriction should be applied for parties, If the differences in levels are 10 or higher, no one gets exp.
Sharing exp if didn't join the battle? No

What I don't get is why people get so upset about the idea of others benefiting from your actions through no part of their own?

It's like asking if you'd be willing to pay a little more in taxes if everyone got healthcare, and them saying, 'I don't want anyone except me to have healthcare'.


This post has been edited by [Knonaut] - February 27, 2012, 19:48:12.

Because if you want to make it easier for people to level up, just increase the exp gained, there's no need to make it possible for anyone to AFK level.


This post has been edited by [Knonaut] - February 27, 2012, 19:48:42.

I think you missed the point. And afk leveling is easily prevented.


This post has been edited by [Knonaut] - February 27, 2012, 19:49:39.

Global exp:
I don't like it.

Ad-Hoc battles:
Anyone can join your fight if it isn't locked already.


This post has been edited by [Knonaut] - February 27, 2012, 19:49:55.

Imo, those ideas do have potential.

That Global exp. idea doesn't sound bad, but while reading I couldn't avoid thinking of the possible drawbacks like AFK leveling up and leeching. Which make me think of another possibility.

Apply the mentioned things to guilds and parties, that would encourage grouping up, without having people just following you around and freeloading. I would say the outside-of-combat player should get half of the experience the player who's actually doing something receives.
Also it should be set on a percentage, based on the mentioned player level.

Ad-Hoc.

I like this one quite a bit, tho it shouldn't be applied to PvP.
Also the player in combat should be able to prevent other players from joining, like having a pop-up appearing, and have an option in the settings like "Prevent other players from joining started battles".
 

Hey, a reasonable reply, isn't that nice. Thanks.
I still don't see why people get their nickers in a twist about the idea of people quote "leeching" off of your work. You pay taxes don't you? Sometimes that goes to people who don't deserve it, most of time it goes to people who do. Either way, society is better off for it.

But the thing is that people don't seem to get, is that you benefit from this too. You gain from others works as they gain from yours, and everyone is better off as a result.
Fundamentally most people a good people, and will give as much as they get.

You people seem to labor under the impression that everyone else just want to take your stuff away.
And it's not like you can't build around thous problems. Such as AI that aggros.


Although naturally I agree with your second point, don't apply this to PvP for obvious reasons.

Actually I wanted to make a couple more points, as this just keeps coming up.

First with Global EXP, if it wasn't clear before, the radius for EXP gain from on lookers is about a screen to a screen +1/2. So participates have to be pretty close, and given the size of battles, that's pretty damn close.

AFK leveling really isn't going to work, as it just won't be very efficient and it's easily worked around.
Not only do people move all over the map, thus going out of range of this AFK player, but a simple time limit/idle animation that reduces EXP gain to 0 after a period of inactivity is a quick and easy fix.

Leeching is also not a big problem, but shear virtue of time.
Combat takes awhile in this game, and in small numbers that can be several minutes.
The leecher would have to stand around for up to several minutes doing probably very little other then crafting, for each and every battle.
Or they could expedite the process like any human that likes to progress, and either jump into the battle also or start another adjacent battle. Doing nothing takes time.


Treating this as if 50% of people are going to go AFK or leech off of the other 50% is an entirely knee-jerk and irrational stance.
It's like paying taxes, and just because maybe 3% of the population are not pulling their weight, therefor you shouldn't pay taxes. Even thou 97% of people, including yourself, are contributing and benefiting from taxes.

If you want to be selfish, go play a single player game so that nobody can effect you.
Most people a good people.


~Yoh


This post has been edited by [Knonaut] - February 27, 2012, 19:52:04.

I wouldn't like a pop up window asking me if i allow someoen to join cobat in th emiddle of the fight. there will be for sure some people who will abuse it to make other players difficult.

Imagine you want to target enemy and in that moment pop up window appear and you accidentaly accept this and fail to cast - someone who joined battle appear on cell next to you and so it blocked your line of sight or you will get spam of pop up windows from one evil guild who want to annoy you (and yes there are people like that i wont name guilds because anyone who played beta in bonta know who i am talking about).

So NO to pop up windows.

Abotu the whole idea of joining in fight. I dislike the idea for some reasons. Don't get me wrong you may ask for help when you are about to loose and someoen might save you - that would be nice but on the other hand some people who dislike you or just looking for trobule because they are bored will join your combat and block you the way to escape, making you die (possible way to kill cra who need to keep running away). Other thing is that exp would be lowered due to the fact that exp is related to total level of people in battle and total level of enemies in that battle. Allowing someone to join your combat after it started might even lead to 1 exp received. Also if enutrof will drop pounch someone might join in his combat and steal it - not cool if you ask me. And well pandawa could join in your fight and throw you to enemy when you are low on HP or anyone could join combat and block the cell you needed for attack or movement or summon. This will make some drama and will come back with an uproar. Many players will be pissed of this situation. Also there's other way to annoy someone: join his fight before he is abotu to win and damage him badly (not kill) - he will have to recover more HP after combat and so will waste more time then it should - i dont want to see such things and i do think that current system is actually fine. If you can't find any good group then you propably are selfish or alone-wannabe player. Ask other's, talk to them, do things togather. Interupting other players comabt no matter for what reason mess things up and is unwanted in most of the situations. Even if nto to annoy you then to leech someone will join and simply avoid combat - this is what you wanted to avoid i suppose? Well with current system that we have if you suck in combat an dleech exp while trolling around and only makign problems then you will most likely be kicked from group (group will be re-made without you) so its about being friendly and doing your best - do not change it because its fine now.

btw i would just like to mention, you can only level solo up to level 20, then you need to find a group or you will fail.

there are only plentiful single mobs because it was beta so they knew there would be shortage of players,

when full release comes out i assure you there wont be much single mobs


(i'm not just "gassing", on first day of beta the high level area was the bandits, and they only spawned in groups of 3 or 4)

because of the waves of players crashing into game it was acceptable to "force group" players to progress

If only people who have contributed to the fight gain exp, it's totally legit. Comparing this exp leeching to taxes IRL doesn't make any sense, because taxes is what the government uses to pay the basic services for everyone. If you want exp, go get it yourself.

If Ankama was to put this in the game, they would probably lower the exp rate of monsters as well, this would benefit absolutely nobody. Actually, I think it would only benefit lazy people, and the ones that actually put an effort into gaining exp would have to pay for this.

PS: It would also certainly not make the game any more social, as people would stop hunting in groups and start going solo(or smaller groups), as it would give them more exp overall.


This post has been edited by [Knonaut] - February 27, 2012, 19:53:37.

That sounds funny as hell, I'd totally do that.
Just kidding.

Back to serious matters:

I of course didn't wan't the confirmation window to pop up right in the middle of the screen, that'd be annoying, and people could just spam it to annoy you. (Yeah i'm pretty sure there would be people doing that).

I was thinking of a small pop-up appearing at the top corner of the screen, and of course not fading your screen to black, just staying there without interrupting the fight, until you decide to confirm or deny the request, or just ignore it.


Definitely not my point, I don't mind others having benefits from my work.

Although, most players wouldn't like it, in MMO the vast majority of players likes competition.
Basically, when you grind, you do that to get stronger and the idea of someone achieving your same results without (or with really low) effort doesn't sound fair at all.
I'm not saying forget it, I say let others have half of what i gain since effort needs to be paid, just like in real life.
I think it's about wanting to be competitive.


This post has been edited by [Knonaut] - February 27, 2012, 19:55:27.

Global EXP worked for RotMG because it is a free roam game with a battle interface where enemies and allies alike are on the same map and and are able to do things without direct interation, wheras on Wakfu you have to go into combat mode.

The party systems are good enough and you're free to unlock your battles so that anyone can join in the battle.


This post has been edited by [Knonaut] - February 27, 2012, 19:56:50.

Hence is why I directly stated in the beginning that that shared EXP would be equal regardless on the number of people.
As to the griefing, an account based blacklist system would largely solve most of that, esp if you could also accept or deny individual ad-hoc battle requests.

As for the pop-ups, that wasn't even my suggestion, so do with it what you will.




Really? Who are these people? When did this become a competition?
I really don't know how you have competition in a system like this. It sound more like a dick waving contest to me. PvP is the only real competition in the game, so I don't really know what your on about. Unless your talking about the nation system, which I admit I am not particularly well versed in.

Let me ask you this, would you under this EXP distribution system go AFK or leech off of others?
If so, why?
If not, why not? And why do you think that everyone else or at least a good size of the playerbase don't share those same values that keep you playing the game anyway?
I don't see this as a reason to throw up my hands and stop playing the game. And I don't expect that other would either, or at least not on a noticeable level.

I don't really care if someone else isn't playing the game 'right', does it matter?
How does that effect me? (or you, or anyone for that matter)


This post has been edited by [Knonaut] - February 27, 2012, 19:58:05.

i think this idea about "Global EXP" is a bad idea.

Yes, there are games where a combat is "playable" by all players in there, but WAKFU is not a game like that, it is a game where you "enter in a combat mode and fight for yourself", why the other peoples who are just walking on that map should gain EXP?

If this goes that way, i will never fight, i will just watch a fight and gain the EXP that the fighter on the combat almost died for gain it alone?

So, the "Ad-hoc fight" will just be a good idea if you enter in a fight and the beginning or in the middle, but how a player said in the topic, the pop-up window that allows you to join or no the fight shouldn't appears in the middle of the screen, it should appears on the hight-top of it, and when your turn ends, you choose if the players enters or no in your fight, and the players should choose the cell that the new player will appear. At this way, nobody will disturb the fight of nobody.


This post has been edited by [Knonaut] - February 27, 2012, 19:59:10.