Forum

Doll spell (Liquid Ghoul) deal 41 base damage, Rust deal 44 damage. Doll get's ~130% damage bonus at lvl 100, sadida get's 200% from just spells exp (when spell are maxed). As long as doll's will have 100lvl spells when sadida reach lvl 100 it only means that they will deal more damage at early game. Once sadida lvl up it's spells it will deal more damage with rust then doll with liquid ghoul. Still nettle spell is 2x weaker then Liquid ghoul so it's like 20 base damage? Not a big difference if you have 2 dolls doing it, then just with rust. Sorry but it only shows that sic'em more is a waste. The only, and really only use for sic'em more is that it gives not only AP but MP. But it's so rare for me to happen that doll's can't attack enemy that i still see better uses for points then this spell. If i had spare points to use i would put them in Still life. I feel that Sic'em more will be last thing i will ever level. Tell me why sic'em more if i have green guard and tree. Tree hurt's but you can heal up after and you gain immunity. Green guard trigger often and it's good combo with Doll link. In group fight i always have it triggering. Unless it's group with cra and feca that just clear all but then i won't even bother summoning doll. I did some dungeons and green guard was awsome. It always makes me feel like if doll's were saying: Don't mess with my girl/Don't mess with my boy (depends on sadida gander) or: that's enough you will pay for that! When i cast sic'em more it's only: chase chase chase. And sadida tear give more MP.
Now with your calculations:
Doll wit
300% of liquid ghoul dmg (doll dmg)
Rust combo:
100% doll dmg x2 + rust dmg = 200% doll dmg + rust dmg. Rust is almost the same base power of Liquid ghoul but sadida get's more water dmg % from spells+ equips so it will be: (depending on sadida elemental damage %): less then equal then more damage then sic'em combo. Maybe let's simplify calculation: Sadida with equal % water dmg to doll will deal 110% of liquid ghoul dmg (41 =100%, 44=~110%). That means rust combo make 310% of doll dmg. Sorry but this only shows that they are either equal or rust is better wich only means that it's not worth wasting speciality pointsa on sic'em more. Unless you can't place doll close enough to enemy! For now i can tell you i am using 2 items with +2 range and it's awsome, my doll can walk anywhere. It's my MP+my range+ doll MP = distance on wich doll can go. Since i have 2 range then it will be 4 (my mp)+ 5(range of seed summoning +2)+4(doll MP). That's 11 Range. Why would i need to summon doll with sic'em then? I can place it next to enemy anyway!
And also notice that you might trigger Green guard while summoning with rust near self - that would be 110+ 55% more damage to doll. Again sorry, but having green guard makes me not pick the sic'em more. Either this or that if you ask me. This is why it's a waste of speciality and sadida could have better one.

Do not level savoir faire! At least not on early lvl's. There are few staffs and hammers that give leadership so you won't need it untill later game. Unless you want to have more then 2 leadership, then go on pick 5 savoir faire. But if you want to lvl makabra weapon then you may choose to add savoir faire right away to 5. But no more, seriously. Your doll's wont live long enough so leadership not that usefull as you might think. If you want my opinion max doll first then get 15lvl in green guard. Abotu stat point: add 100 HP for beggining as you might need it, but then start saving points to get 1AP. Sure there are set's that add AP but before you manage to get full set it will take time and you might be in point where you can equip items wich will give you more hp but you will have to sacrifice AP bonus from set to use them and belive me you don't want to walk all the time in 1 low level set. With 7 AP you shall get Doll sacrifice to lvl 7 where it will cost 2AP. IT will be usefull to win battles that you might loose. "Eat" your doll with doll sacrifice and place new seed in it's place, then use wild grass to summon blocker. Blocker can lock enemy and then you can repeat this untill you get healed even to full if you want (fight will be long but at least you won't die and won't need recovery after fight). With 7 AP you can also place seed and summon it with Rust for 2x attack of doll right away. You can summon doll with Rust while damaging enemy wich is equal to sic'em more damage so sic'em mroe is totally useless.
Here lil example with 7 ap build:
seed+rust=2x attack from doll + your damage on enemy
seed+vaporize+sic'em more= 2x attack from doll + 1 weaker dmg from nettling spell
They are equal in power and number of attacks so what using points on something like sic'em more?
Get green guard. With 30% chance on 15lvl your dolls might get angry when you hurt yourself with Rust, while buffing doll's in same time. I love this combo.
What person who got already 1 doll summoned do to make another doll:
Person with sic'em more place another seed, use vaporize and then cast sic'em more. The summoned doll will attack as before + there will be single damage from previously summoned doll. This will make 3x attack from dolls +1 weaker dmg from nettling spell
Person who don't waste points on sic'em more will summon another seed next to previous doll and enemy. This will buff previous doll too and damage enemy in same time. We will get 4x attack from dolls + your damage on enemy with rust. You see you gain 1 more attack from doll= profit! Even if you won't hit enemy you will still summon seed next to other doll wich will make each of your doll's attack twice (so 4x attack from dolls). It's still better in damage then 3x doll attacks +1 weaker from nettling spell. Notice Nettling spell do ~half of the damage of base doll attack. See? It's not worth leveling Sic'em More. It's useless spell. And when you have 3 dolls next to enemy who is also next to you (enemy is surrounded and can lock you) then you will cast rust, buff all 3 dolls for 3AP and get chance to buff them with green guard as you injured self with rust = another profit. You can't do that with sic'em more even with 9 ap. You would need 9AP for buffing each doll for nettle state and there is still rust that hasnt been used wich makes Sic'em More again not worth lvling.
Explodoll on the other hand is like double-edged blade. If your doll die before you can "consume" and replace it then it will go boom. Yes it's not BOOM, it's just boom. But still it's another source of damage. The bad thing about explodoll is that enemy can push your doll on you or you might be close to dolls already when enemy will kill them and you will suffer damage while enemy might not (if enemy killed dolls at distance). This is really not rewarding but i would still pick explodoll as we don't have any protection for doll's. Maybe not at early game, but later on, why not?
Doll link i must say is great... well it actually depends on situation... Let's say it's great if you have eniripsa in group. Eniripsa who will heal your doll's instead of healing other players... Still doll link allow you to tank. As long as enemy don't aoe around self you can tank for your doll's who do the damage for you. They will loose hp for you but they won't die as fast as if you were sending them to tank. It's actually one of the 2 available method''s of playing current weak sadida versions. Other is to equip fire type weapon and send those walking bombs to enemy. Or just send your doll's with maxed explodoll knowing they will die anyway. Yes. Sadida now is playing as if it were rouge. It simpyl send bombs to enemy as doll's wont survive direct attacks. Even blocker got problems with it. And i am still wondering why doll's have more damage % then resist %? It's so stupid... Nevermind.
Maybe i will just make a list of specialities:
Doll - max it, doll's will die anyway but maybe they will survive 1 attack instead of dieing right away.
Doll Sacrifice - get it to level 7 for 2AP cost so you can heal and place new blocker in same time or to sacrifice 3 doll's in 1 turn if they are all about to die (happends often).
Totem - it's not an obstacle, sadly, and can be easily countered. Maybe it could be good to link it to ally and heal it, then step on it to not let enemy attack ally via it... but since sadida can't heal and eniripsa got heal's with no los.... it's not gonna be used this way. You can max it to link it to enemies at distance and then place blocker near enemy to not make it step on totem... maybe thats the only way but well there are better specialities and you dont want to loose leadership that you might need for doll.
Tree - ocasionally usefull. when maxed you can heal up and use it for immunity with minimal hp lost or minimal hp gain overall. Very situational. Though if you surounded and you know you will suffer more then 20% of your helth then you will use it.
Sic'em More - useless speciality. I hope they replace it with something else.
Explodoll - knowing your doll's die fast this will help you deal some damage. A punishment for enemy for killing your doll's. However weak this punishment is.
Doll Link - cool ability itself but fail on longer run and in pvp with doll's low hp. Any aoe cast on you and dolls kill your doll's right away. This is bad side of this spell. IF enemy is attacking only you (usually in pve) then it's good.
Sadida's Savoir-Faire - not that you can summon many doll's.... they die so young... Totem redirect here is a joke. I mean... why it's here? i dont know. Still since it's here if you use totem you might consider wasting points in it. Or if you feel like not using items with leadership, then lvl it by 5 or maybe 10 - decide yourself if you need it.
Green Guard - get it to 15 level and you will get profit. Though if doll's will use nettle spell as first move they will not use all ap - annoying bug. This bug happends ocasionally hope they fix it soon.
Still Life - pretty cool. Well no, not much. It makes you survive even though you died but you have low hp and you dont even have your spells but doll's attacks (it means you can attack in melee only). Lvling it makes you always think: do i need higher % chance for it? Or is it fine on 50%? Well yeah.... that's how it is.
If you want to know my build i'm planning to get 9 ap build (2ap from items, 1 from stats) with makabrarings and makabraclub(1 ap in weapon when it will become lvl 100 and 1 ap from black crow set, hopefully). I'm doing fine with 7 ap while waiting to achive those. I have maxed doll and doll link, doll sacrifice at level 7 and green guard lvl 15. I've decided not so long ago to get 5 points in savoir faire. Now i'm lvling explodoll to get it maxed. I will put remaining points either in totem, to get it for 3 ap or to get it for additional 1 range or i will put more points in savoir faire - don't know yet. Still waiting for sadida update (hope it will come in may).

thanks for the advices. i was talking about the passive speciality explodol, not the fire doll
any thought on that?

yes i spec summoner (will get the AP from set) and still skip it because it takes to long to be effective. i just finish off then mobs faster without, that's just how it is. nothing to prove at all.

woodland has no extra effect, only dmg increases and that's quite a bit and true, as i alredy wrote twice, if you cast rust with 3 dolls around enemy, you do more dmg than casting 3 times woodland, else you just don't... yes, rust gives any doll 2nd attack, but i still do more dmg with woodland than a doll does with normal attack, even when they are nettled, but this changes high lvl and that's why you cast rust as soon as 3 dolls surround enemy... (kinda stupid to repeat myself over and over again...)

and as you told me, either i don't understand you, or you just don't understand me, cause for me killing enemy faster without summons as summoner spec just to level up faster, doesn't mean i don't play summon style, i just skip it cause it's NOT WORTH it atm. to even summon. it takes to long and such things. and besides rust i don't see me using ANY other water spell at all and that'S what the tpic is about, sumoner = water tree... why? whole tree for 1 spell that doesn't need any lvl and only if enemy is surrounded?

on topic even if water helps you with dolls etc. it doesn't mean that you need to go water if you want to play summon. i play summoner as wind user (as soon as dolls are worth using i will sumon them first) and as long as they are not i finish my enemys quickly instead of summong 3 turns and then cast rust twice and then the enemy is dead. i cast 3*3 woodland and enemy is dead as well just to be faster in leveling up...

and to the point where i want to prove me right... with what?
i just asked why playing water as summoner if wind is simply better and you still didn't answer that besides the things i already said in my first post like rust +3 dolls, so sry for me beeing to stupid to see what you mean.

i think everything has been said that has to be, so lets just stop it here.

cheers.

hmm... only way to increase my summons is stacking HP and that is what i'm doing. so i would say i'm a summoner, else i would have stacked agility, right? ^.~

funny thing is you tell me you do 110 dmg in first turn at lvl 55 and i just wrote above that i could do ~120 dmg a turn at my lvl 30 now with a wind set and that's what i mean. xD

playing on summons makes you weaker than as pure wind. also i asked skills that are WORTH leveling and you tell me rust and tear, which don't get any improvement in the AP/MP they give and this is the only reason you cast them for, cause the dmg is still shi... sorry, i mean not great.

as far as i noticed, greedies get around ~0,5 dmg per level, at lvl 1 they did 1 or 2 dmg, at lvl 33 they now have ~17 so at lvl 100 they will have ~60 dmg? (without any summon dmg set) sorry, but that rly doesn't sound promising. not to add the low HP they got...
what is the highest summon bonus set? i believe it's around ~50% so they would make 90 dmg which would still be less than a woodland lvl 100 as wind spec could do.
also i don't know if it's just me or if the add summon dmg stat is bugged? if i choose it as ini bonus, my summons still do normal dmg. (the +50% one)

in short, water helps if you play with mass doll, but you don't need to level any spell in this tree and if you don't have 3 greedys around your enemy, why should you cast rust if you can cast woodland and do more dmg?

i only use water, because i'm forced to, to summon greedie, else i wouldn't waste any XP on it and i still don't see why i should play on water only, if i do clearly more dmg with wind spec...

if this doesn't change next update, i will get some water dagger or something with low AP and water element to summon my greedies with weps, so i don't loose XP anymore... yeah, i would loose my range but for me it's worth it. well just wait what the next update gives us sads.

so i'll ask you again, not to harm you or something like that, but i just wanna know, why on earth i should skill my water spells if i'm playing as summoner, i want to understand it. my point is, summon greedies, tank for dolls and cast woodland atm. this works best, but to be honest, i mostly skip the summon part, becuase without summoning the fight ends after round 3/4, with summon i need 2 turns more for the same fight. so if i just play for fun i summon, if i want to level fast i don't summon/ only summon if i can't reach the enemy. ^^

phew... sry for the long text.

/edit
forgot to thank you again Kikuihimonji will test some of them later. =D

atm. i'm lvl 3X and my skilled all points into HP and i wear wisdom set so no wind bonus at all and my wind spells still do more dmg than my dolls even so i didn't even put any afford into wind...

as i told you already i only use the 2 AP skill to create greedy (wasting skill XP for wind tree) and if i somehow get 3 living dolls around 1 enemy i use the +AP spell(wasting XP again), else i just use sic'em if i can't hit enemy or if i can hit woodland. i don't use sudden chill at all. maybe i'll start using it if i have some windusers in my party but for myself just woodland is better.

if i recall correctly i could get an air set with around +100% air dmg which would render my dolls as absolute useless since i would do 40*3 dmg with woodland while my dolls still do ~15...
i'm just using them cause i feel like i have to, because i play this class to BE a summoner, even so it's useless if you think twice about it. maybe it will change at lvl 50/70+, but i don't see my dolls live long enought to be worth the WP, also i start to doubt that investing in HP just for dolls is worth it, since it only gives your dolls around 85 HP at lvl 100 as full HP stack. i rly don't think that 85 HP is much at lvl 100. this will mostly only make a difference between one hitting a doll and an almost dead doll, but i still belive in my "summoner".

but back to the point where i asked you what water spells are worth leveling to define it as "the" summoner tree. still don't see the one i would use besides the 3 AP one which i already said is not even worth to put XP in.

Air spells are definetly for summoner build. Simply because they can be redirected via doll's bodies. You will use air damage all the time and just like HuntingFox said you will feel like wasting spell exp for water branch spells. The only good thing is that you are getting some resistance % from leveling them but that's all about it. Sadly sadida's can't level spells they want anymore. They could, with old totem. Now they can't. This only means sadidas will be weaker then any other class because we need to level at least 2 branches of element's to be effective. In long run, sadida will be good. But that require patience and a lot of training after level 100.

why does everyone tell any sad that if you want to play summon sad go water!? oO

there is only 1!!! water spell that is good (the +3 AP one) and there is NO reason at all to lvl that spell. the AP don't increase and the dmg of that spell is crap anyways.

i play summon myself and i do 3 times dmg with wind than my water sad partner. the only time i cast a water spell is if an enemy is surrounded by dolls so i get at least 3 dolls with the +3 AP, else wind does more dmg (or sic'em). so pls point it out for me ( the stupid one) why i should go water at all? atm. i feel all the skill exp for summon and the +3 AP spell are wasted XP points cause it sucks out my wind XP...

A good idea, something to do with useless itens you make and drop. But it would be another crafting profession not gathering, regardless, it is a good idea.

uhm... read again, he wrote that changing the 20% to the vooddoll skill so this skill alone will give you 40% instead of 20%, so no loss at all... it's a buff thread, not a nerf one. ^^

i mean other classes like cra or iop got a passive to increase dmg by 40%, why should sad only have 20% for 1 passive? it's just fair if we also get 40% for 20 points.

20% to summons is fair, cause we can have multi summons.

It would be nice if it gave experience as well, based on the level of the item being disassembled. Though, it would probably have to be reduced experience as compared to crafting the item.

So what about characteristic points? Should I put on agility or put on hp to buff dolls?